Things I currently don't love about TCB

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Sergenth
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

I don't like the

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04-04-2007 at 01:39 AM

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WyattSmee
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

Sergenth wrote:
I don't like the
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×briars...
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×So EeeeeVIL...
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×and FAST!

Yes they can be a bit difficult to predict. Still adapting here. Although...

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04-04-2007 at 02:08 AM

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UrAvgAzn
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Sergenth wrote:
I don't like the
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×briars...
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×So EeeeeVIL...
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×and FAST!

Seconding that.

Keep posting,

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04-04-2007 at 02:21 AM

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DGM
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

WyattSmee wrote:
And wasn't the sobbing City guard, earlier, just precious? Poor goblie.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-04-2007 03:26 AM]

04-04-2007 at 02:27 AM

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mrimer
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

DGM wrote:

WyattSmee wrote:
And wasn't the sobbing City guard, earlier, just precious? Poor goblie.

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×I find it hard to feel too bad for the guard. He was the one who sealed that goblin in! All he had to do was give the goblin a few turns to get out before closing the door. It isn;t like the brambles were moving that fast...

The Empire isn't what it used to be.

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04-04-2007 at 03:23 AM

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BDR
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

DGM wrote:

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×I find it hard to feel too bad for the guard. He was the one who sealed that goblin in! All he had to do was give the goblin a few turns to get out before closing the door. It isn't like the brambles were moving that fast...

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04-04-2007 at 03:26 AM

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DGM
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

The Empire isn't what it used to be.

I'm still not sure what the heck it's supposed to be now. :rolleyes

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04-04-2007 at 03:27 AM

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Yellow_Mage
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

UrAvgAzn wrote:

Sergenth wrote:
I don't like the
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×briars...
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×So EeeeeVIL...
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×and FAST!
Seconding that.

Keep posting,

I kind of like them... (I'm not a masochist, no really)

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There is one thing I don't like, but it's probably that I haven't read the Help file properly...

Extra functions? Room-Lock? Things that I thought you could do but I can't? I only heard about skip dialogue with Space bar until I read it on the forum...

Hmm, I'm going to read the help file again...

Oh, and I can't deselect people in Caravel Chat (or I couldn't for some reason on that occasion). So I whispered to people that I didn't mean to... Hmm...

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[Last edited by Yellow_Mage at 04-04-2007 04:11 AM]

04-04-2007 at 04:08 AM

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Sergenth
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

CTRL-Click allows you to deselect a whisperee in chat. There's a lot more chat functions that I'm dark on still.

04-04-2007 at 05:43 AM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

Yellow_Mage wrote:

Extra functions? Room-Lock? Things that I thought you could do but I can't? I only heard about skip dialogue with Space bar until I read it on the forum...

Room lock is activated by left-shift.

If you're not sure about whether some feature is in, ask. I think there will be some effort put into improving the documentation in later patches, but the more info about what's missing or unclear, the better.

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04-04-2007 at 06:09 AM

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Briareos
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+2)

mrimer wrote:
The Empire isn't what it used to be.

EMPIRE FOR SALE!

Slightly less used than before.

Enquire beneath.

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04-04-2007 at 09:09 AM

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DGM
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

Hmmm... Can't spare my Really Big Sword, but I've got 22 greckles and a wayward nephew I could trade you for it. Don't let the ADD fool you, that kid's got potential.

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[Last edited by DGM at 04-04-2007 10:06 AM]

04-04-2007 at 09:31 AM

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Yellow_Mage
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

eytanz wrote:

Yellow_Mage wrote:

Extra functions? Room-Lock? Things that I thought you could do but I can't? I only heard about skip dialogue with Space bar until I read it on the forum...

Room lock is activated by left-shift.

If you're not sure about whether some feature is in, ask. I think there will be some effort put into improving the documentation in later patches, but the more info about what's missing or unclear, the better.

I did eventually find everything (I think) in the help file. I just had to click for more Keyboard Commands and it looks awfully similar but with what the extra key functions are. Problem was I didn't know what I could do or can't do so my investigative mind was asleep. Mind, that I should of gone to bed as well at 4am... sigh...

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04-04-2007 at 12:44 PM

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stigant
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

I'm finding the number of different floor tiles to be a bit daunting.

Last night, I was playing River Dugan 5S 5E. After all the other rooms with bridges, it took me a full 10 minutes to figure out why the bridges in the middle weren't dropping. Its because they're a different style of trapdoor, not a bridge! Certainly, one can realize that they're a different pattern from the bridges (if you had a bridge next to them), but there are the red trap doors in that room as well (and it was getting late), so I was understandably confused. (Good room, btw... a very tough trapdoor puzzle!)

I still haven't managed to figure out which pressure plates are one time/toggle/whatever the other one is. They all look so similar. Is there some mnemonic? For example, the one time orbs look fragile/cracked so I can easily remember that they are the one time orbs, but I can't see anything like that for the pressure plates.

I love the platforms! Lots of puzzle potential (and also abuse potential ... RD 4S1E) But they're starting to blend in with all the other colors of trapdoors and bridges and pressure plates and water and...

spoiler ahead:

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What do they add exactly? I've only seen one, and it didn't really seem to add anything to the room.

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Edit: don't get me wrong... I like most if not all of the new features. I'm just complaining about my lack of ability to keep them all straight.

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04-04-2007 at 02:03 PM

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NiroZ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

stigant wrote:
spoiler ahead:

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×
And we also have the (c)? plates taht you have to touch before exiting a room/end a solution when you touch them.
What do they add exactly? I've only seen one, and it didn't really seem to add anything to the room.

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×And I just saw the tar-transparency token (yay! we've needed this feature for a long time!)... but was there a reason this was implemented as an ingame feature that I have to step on rather than just letting me click on the tar?

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04-04-2007 at 02:08 PM

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Doom
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

stigant wrote:
I still haven't managed to figure out which pressure plates are one time/toggle/whatever the other one is. They all look so similar. Is there some mnemonic? For example, the one time orbs look fragile/cracked so I can easily remember that they are the one time orbs, but I can't see anything like that for the pressure plates.

When in doubt, right-click. This is very useful for spotting things under monsters, too (like the direction of a force arrow)

04-04-2007 at 02:08 PM

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Stefan
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

stigant wrote:
Its because they're a different style of trapdoor, not a bridge!

It's the same kind of trapdoor, but the light effects are different.

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04-04-2007 at 02:14 PM

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stigant
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

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×Bascially, it counts as a step on monster. Once you have stepped on the thing, you highscore demo will count upto there.

yeah, I get that, but it doesn't seem to affect the puzzle really except that I have to go to a different place before I leave. I mean you could get pretty much the same effect with a pressure plate behind a green door that opens an exit door. And why stop the demo there? What does that add? Its just an odd feature.

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×It doesn't just affect tar. I dunno, having it as a token adds a smidgen of puzzle potential.
ok, well I'll reserve judgement on its puzzle potential until I've actually played a couple of rooms with it.

When in doubt, right-click. This is very useful for spotting things under monsters, too (like the direction of a force arrow)
Yeah, I know I can get the information manually, but the different visual styles clearly indicate what type they are. I'm clearly intended to learn to distinguish them visually. I'm just having a hard time doing it because they were all introduced at the same time, and their features don't seem to be connected to their appearance. Contrast that with rotation tokens. Clearly the arrow indicates which direction they turn. I'll never forget, and I'll never need to reach for the mouse. Or trapdoors which were introduced long ago by themselves, so I know what they do.

It's the same kind of trapdoor, but the light effects are different
Actually, I'm pretty sure they were different colors. One was reddish and the other were a light tannish brown (the picture painted by the room is the DAA logo, I believe). I suppose it could have been lighting, but that doesn't change my complaint (they look different, but they're the same), it just puts it in a different place.

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[Last edited by stigant at 04-04-2007 02:22 PM]

04-04-2007 at 02:19 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

stigant wrote:
spoiler ahead:

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×
And we also have the (c)? plates taht you have to touch before exiting a room/end a solution when you touch them.
What do they add exactly? I've only seen one, and it didn't really seem to add anything to the room.

They're mostly there for the sake of the high-scorers. They allows several things:

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×And I just saw the tar-transparency token (yay! we've needed this feature for a long time!)... but was there a reason this was implemented as an ingame feature that I have to step on rather than just letting me click on the tar?

Yes, but I don't think it was a good reason. I think this was a bad design choice by Mike but he disagrees and no-one else on the dev team agreed with me either so I was overruled. I'll leave it up to the other devs to give an actual explanation, since if I try I'll end up sounding bitter.

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04-04-2007 at 02:22 PM

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stigant
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

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×1. The move count (for scoring purposes) ends when you hit the C token, so it eliminates the need to optimize exiting the room once the puzzle is done.

2. It allows scoring for monsterless rooms - it's basically the same principle as sticking a roach at the end of a puzzle, except that it takes less space and you don't have to worry about things like optimizing sword direction on room entrnace.

3. It also is an easy way to prevent alternate demos that involve killing a bunch of monsters than returning the way you came without solving half the puzzle and the like.

Ok, I don't mind optimizers. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. We play the game differently... great! But:
1. If getting out of the room is hard, that's something else for them to optimize. Why remove this part of their game (which they seem to enjoy) at the expense of (needlessly) making my game more complicated?
2. I can get into that, though I've always liked the roach at the beginning/roach at the end practice. Once you've seen a couple of those rooms, you get it. Plus, you can usually do the roach thing with an arrow on one square, right?
3. I guess I can see that, but if that's a problem for a particular room, then add a roach or an orb or something.

I guess this is a feature that I just don't think it really adds anything meaningful. Its not hurting my feelings or anything. I just don't see the point.

I'll leave it up to the other devs to give an actual explanation, since if I try I'll end up sounding bitter.

I can sympathize with that :-)

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[Last edited by stigant at 04-04-2007 02:39 PM]

04-04-2007 at 02:36 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

stigant wrote:

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×1. The move count (for scoring purposes) ends when you hit the C token, so it eliminates the need to optimize exiting the room once the puzzle is done.

2. It allows scoring for monsterless rooms - it's basically the same principle as sticking a roach at the end of a puzzle, except that it takes less space and you don't have to worry about things like optimizing sword direction on room entrnace.

3. It also is an easy way to prevent alternate demos that involve killing a bunch of monsters than returning the way you came without solving half the puzzle and the like.

Ok, I don't mind optimizers. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. We play the game differently... great! But:
1. If getting out of the room is hard, that's something else for them to optimize. Why remove this part of their game (which they seem to enjoy) at the expense of (needlessly) making my game more complicated?

It's not for rooms where getting out is hard. It's for rooms where getting out is easy but the obvious way to exit is not the closest exit. Optimizers often have to do all sorts of bizzare backtracks, which this token aims to eliminate.

2. I can get into that, though I've always liked the roach at the beginning/roach at the end practice. Once you've seen a couple of those rooms, you get it. Plus, you can usually do the roach thing with an arrow on one square, right?
3. I guess I can see that, but if that's a problem for a particular room, then add a roach or an orb or something.

There isn't always room, and it's sometimes disruptive to room design.

This isn't a huge feature, but it's there to allow more flexibility for architects. I think optimizers will appreciate it a lot more than other people, but it's also useful for people trying to have story-heavy holds and the like where the placement of monsters cannot be completely arbitrary.

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04-04-2007 at 02:43 PM

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AlefBet
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

stigant wrote:
1. If getting out of the room is hard, that's something else for them to optimize. Why remove this part of their game (which they seem to enjoy) at the expense of (needlessly) making my game more complicated?

I think one of the best uses of the token is where for one reason or another there is pretty much exactly one length a victory demo can be. Think about a room where the first turn activates a really long fuse and there's no way to exit until the bombs go off, so lots of people will light the fuse, kill the monsters, solve the puzzle, and sit at the critical point waiting for the last 20 turns while the fuse burns off, at which point they will take the obvious exit. Optimizing wasn't very meaningful for those rooms.

Another possibility is a trapdoor room, where you have to clear the trapdoors, so pretty much everybody's move count will be the number of trapdoors plus a few turns. With the score token placed cleverly somewhere, a score can be based on how aggressively the delver can reach the token without ruining the trapdoors.

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04-04-2007 at 06:54 PM

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Schik
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

eytanz wrote:
Yes, but I don't think it was a good reason. I think this was a bad design choice by Mike but he disagrees and no-one else on the dev team agreed with me either so I was overruled. I'll leave it up to the other devs to give an actual explanation, since if I try I'll end up sounding bitter.

I would also prefer it be a user preference. I didn't speak up in the conversation in development because I know a losing battle when I see one. I very well might hack my version to have it user configurable. Or just to leave it on all the time.

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04-04-2007 at 07:01 PM

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AlefBet
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

eytanz wrote:

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×And I just saw the tar-transparency token (yay! we've needed this feature for a long time!)... but was there a reason this was implemented as an ingame feature that I have to step on rather than just letting me click on the tar?

Yes, but I don't think it was a good reason. I think this was a bad design choice by Mike but he disagrees and no-one else on the dev team agreed with me either so I was overruled. I'll leave it up to the other devs to give an actual explanation, since if I try I'll end up sounding bitter.

For me, I guess the reasoning behind this was...

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[Last edited by AlefBet at 04-05-2007 09:04 PM]

04-04-2007 at 07:07 PM

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jbluestein
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

Here's the thing that I currently don't love about TCB:

Force arrows.

In the default (demo) room, force arrows on roads are translucent blue outlines on a gray background. Which is to say that they're almost invisible.

I can live with it. I'm noticing it a lot more in holds that I play in the demo (I do wish I had all the other room styles in the demo) than in the actual play of the game.

But I greatly mislike bumping into force arrows because I couldn't see that they were there.

Josh (squinting)

PS It's a minor complaint. I'm really enjoying the game. Except that I hate

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And I really hate

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And I'm not sure what's next, but I bet that I'll hate it as well.

Josh

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04-04-2007 at 07:13 PM

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AtkinsSJ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

I've noticed a tremendous pause between rooms, which I didn't have in JtRH. It seems that this is caused by CaravelNet, as turning that off has reduced the pauses dramatically. (Some were over a minute, which was rather annoying when going through empty rooms. The library sequence was likewise tedious.)
I'm unsure as to whether this is affected by the number of holds downloaded, as I downloaded them all, as silver suggested, when importing.
Other than that, good so far. I've not been this excited by a game for ages! I'm loving some of the puzzles at the moment, and the potential (Yeah, I know, I used the word. :p ) new elements have. Briars are evil, though. A deadly, rapidly expanding, invulnerable enemy. But they definitely add tension.

04-04-2007 at 07:33 PM

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BeefontheBone
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (+1)

I downloaded only the holds I'd played any of in 2.0, and I do get much longer pauses than I used to. Haven't tried w/o CaravelNet on. Could it be related to the chat somehow? Not sure.

Regarding the tokens mentioned above, it seems we've missed the fact that, unlike that aesthetically irritating trapped roach, they can be activated when you're not carrying a sword. Roaches are also less trivial to trap if your room contains rotation token thingies, requiring crumbly walls and the like.

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04-04-2007 at 07:54 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

AtkinsSJ wrote:
I've noticed a tremendous pause between rooms, which I didn't have in JtRH. It seems that this is caused by CaravelNet, as turning that off has reduced the pauses dramatically. (Some were over a minute, which was rather annoying when going through empty rooms. The library sequence was likewise tedious.)
I'm unsure as to whether this is affected by the number of holds downloaded, as I downloaded them all, as silver suggested, when importing.

It certainly is affected by it. Hopefully, this will be resolved in a patch before too long.

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04-04-2007 at 08:11 PM

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AtkinsSJ
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

Thanks for the quick reply. I'd been worried that it might be the awesome new lighting effects, so it is very good if they are not the problem. I await the patch with much anticipation!

04-04-2007 at 08:21 PM

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eytanz
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Re: Things I currently don't love about TCB (0)

I should point out that I have no idea what Mike's plans are regarding upcoming patches and the like. Only that I think there's a major problem here and that Mike will want to fix it as well, but don't treat anything I say about the future as an official word.

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04-04-2007 at 08:24 PM

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