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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Worms
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Skylancer64
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I think that something similar to this might have been suggested a while back, but I don't think that anything has been suggested with quite this type of behavior. So, here goes. It's a bit long because I tried to be specific and detailed.

A worm is a long monster, that unlike other long monsters, is active at both ends. Of course, on any given turn, only one end will be active and act like a head, while the other end will act like a tail, so that the worm remains the same length. Unlike other long monsters, worms can be of length one.

Movement Rules:

If neither end of the worm can move, then nothing happens.
If just one end can move, or if the worm is of length one, then the worm will move from that end like a regular serpent.
If both ends can move, then a serpent move is generated for both ends. Of the two, the move made is the move that minimizes the Manhattan distance of the closest end to Beethro (distance ignores walls and obstacles). If both moves result in the same closest value, some arbitrary preference can be used.

Note that usually it will be the closest end that moves actively, but this will not always be the case:

....B...     .....B..     A,B = end of worm
....O...     .....O..       O = worm segment
....O...     .....O..       X = wall
....OX.*     ....AO.*       * = Beethro
....AX..     ........
.....X..     ........

In both cases above, the minimum distance for the closest end, A, occurs when B moves and A drags along as a tail. Fiddling with it seems to suggest that this would happen relatively often, creating movement patterns very different from any that already exist.

If an end is under the effect of a decoy, than the generated move and the Manhattan distances for that end are calculated using the decoy. All the same, the move chosen is the one that minimizes the distance of the closest end, whether the closeness is to a decoy or to Beethro. If a brain is in effect, then the move generated for each end will be a brained serpent’s move, and the final move chosen will minimize brain pathmap distance instead of Manhattan distance.

Vulnerability:

Worms will be vulnerable at their centers. This will be a single vulnerable segment if the worm is of odd length, and two vulnerable segments if it is of even length. Length-one and length-two worms are no exception, and fall under this rule easily. When a segment is destroyed, the (up to two) resulting pieces become independent worms. Ideally, the pieces would not move on the turn they are created, like tar babies from cutting tar. Again, no exceptions are needed for short worms. Length-one worms leave no pieces, and length-two worms leave a single length-one worm when struck.

Puzzle Potential:

Since worms will never get themselves stuck (aside from force arrows, etc) or killed like normal serpents, they will be significantly more versatile for manipulation puzzles where they are needed to block tar or other critters, or need to be maneuvered out of an unreachable area. Dual-ended movement will result in behavior unlike that of any existing monster. Also, small alcoves or serpent traps would actually act as storage for worms as long as Beethro is closer to the trapped end, since the trapped worm would oscillate between stepping into the trap and then not being able to move and being dragged out as a tail. This could open more possibilities for manipulation puzzles. Also, the splitting of worms allows much potential for puzzles (need X worms of different lengths) and combat. Moreover, the length-one worm all by itself would open possibilities, as a unique type of “roach” that moves only orthogonally, keeps moving unless trapped, and exhibits 5-turn serpent direction preference, among other features of serpent movement.

Comments? :fun

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03-03-2007 at 06:13 AM
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Banjooie
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I was hoping there'd be some mention of bazookas or ninja rope in this thread.

I was disappointed. :(
03-03-2007 at 10:01 AM
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Elfstone
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This is a very interesting idea Skylance. I have questions arising from :
When a segment is destroyed, the (up to two) resulting pieces become independent worms.

a) Does that mean that another head grows on the chopped end? or are we left with two one headed Worms? which leads me to:

b) How does Beethro destroy the Worm completely? - chop from the non-head end once halved, or does the one headed half shrink when trapped? If we have a Worm which can grow a new head some other means of demise will have to be created.

c) Also, if the big(ish) Worm when halved grows a new head on the chopped end of each half, do the halves also 'develop' a vulnerable middle segment?

d) I have to ask this :rolleyes what colour did you have in mind?

Elfstone.

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03-03-2007 at 12:04 PM
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AtkinsSJ
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I like it. The idea for a serpent-like creature that can be cut in half has floated around for a while, and this seems like a good use.

I would hope that there would be some kind of graphical indication of where the centre of the worm was, and which end would move if both moves were deemed equal.
03-03-2007 at 12:17 PM
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zex20913
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This is a very well thought out idea for the multidirectional serpent idea.

I only have a couple of concerns with it.

1. As Atkins SJ brought up, how does the Worm move when the Manhattan distances are equal? I would suggest an alternating pattern if this happens. (The head that moved last would be the tail.)

2. This seems deviously hard to kill. A worm of length 15 can be broken down into 8 length-1 worms, and at each contact point, two heads develop really near Beethro. (Math note: In general, a Worm of length (2^n)-1 can generate 2^(n-1) length one worms. Nice symmetry effect.) I would prefer if one half (the one that was the tail end on the last move) died off at each cutting.

Also, having one or two vulnerable spots on a length 255 worm? That seems a bit disconcerting. Perhaps there should be a percentage of vulnerable segments, rather than a fixed number. Or maybe they are vulnerable every X segments, for long Worms.

3. While it wouldn't be random, I think this monster would give more trouble than Wraithwing hordes in terms of prediction. I haven't played around with it, so I don't know for sure, but it seems a bit complex.

Not a concern, but: Does cutting in the middle of an even Worm make both segments die?

What I like most about this idea is the ability to get a worm down to 1 square. I think this offers a great deal of puzzle potential even by itself and would like to see some puzzles using it. :thumbsup to the idea...but it still needs a bit of ironing out, as far as I'm concerned.

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03-03-2007 at 01:05 PM
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Skylancer64
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a) Does that mean that another head grows on the chopped end? or are we left with two one headed Worms? which leads me to:
Yes, any chopped end becomes a head, just like the next segment over for a rattlesnake becomes a tail. Also, I was rather thinking that graphically, both ends look the same, since the way that movement works, both ends really are the same.
b) How does Beethro destroy the Worm completely? - chop from the non-head end once halved, or does the one headed half shrink when trapped? If we have a Worm which can grow a new head some other means of demise will have to be created.
The vulnerable-at-center rule applies for all length worms. It just so happens that this makes length-two worms vulnerable at their ends, and length-one worms vulnerable outright. Vulnerabliliy has nothing to do with ends/heads.
c) Also, if the big(ish) Worm when halved grows a new head on the chopped end of each half, do the halves also 'develop' a vulnerable middle segment?
Yes.
d) I have to ask this :rolleyes what colour did you have in mind?
Not sure really. I think it would work better if the ends of a worm didn't look so explicitly like a head. I'm thinking maybe like earthworm-like graphics, perhaps with a white or tan or brown color. Of course, it could always be magenta.
I would hope that there would be some kind of graphical indication of where the centre of the worm was
Yes, there should be. To avoid having to create extra special end-graphics, however, length-one and length-two worms might leave out the indication.
As Atkins SJ brought up, how does the Worm move when the Manhattan distances are equal? I would suggest an alternating pattern if this happens. (The head that moved last would be the tail.)
Sounds like a good idea. I was playing around with the idea of having the end that moved last be the one that moves next if equal, but this works too. If both of these are too hard to implement for Drod (not sure if the code is set up to track stuff like this), then it could be one end that always moves in these cases, or we could even try a preference based on the position of each end on the screen (upper left preferred highest, going row by row, column by column).
2. This seems deviously hard to kill. A worm of length 15 can be broken down into 8 length-1 worms, and at each contact point, two heads develop really near Beethro. (Math note: In general, a Worm of length (2^n)-1 can generate 2^(n-1) length one worms. Nice symmetry effect.) I would prefer if one half (the one that was the tail end on the last move) died off at each cutting.
I think having them split opens lots of opportunities. Also, I was envisioning something like the ends of an earthworm graphically, where each end looks the same. Would be a bit tricky to handle, but should be fine since worms are still limited to orthagonal movement. It wouldn't be too much harder than fighting a rattlesnake horde where striking a snake's tail reversed the head and tail of the rattlesnake.
3. While it wouldn't be random, I think this monster would give more trouble than Wraithwing hordes in terms of prediction. I haven't played around with it, so I don't know for sure, but it seems a bit complex.
More or less, the behavior will be that the closest end tries to get to Beethro like a serpent, with the one exception that it can back up to get to closer Beethro as shown in the two examples in my original post. If Beethro ever gets closer to the other end, then it will be the other end that tries to get to Beethro instead. You can decide if this is too complex.
Does cutting in the middle of an even Worm make both segments die?
No. It will destroy the cut segment, and each piece will become a new worm. Note that the pieces will not be of the same length. A length 4 worm will generate a length 1 worm and a length 2 worm when cut, for example.
Also, having one or two vulnerable spots on a length 255 worm?
Shouldn't be too bad. Same as a Rattlesnake having only one vulnerable tail, although this tail is much easier to get to and much easier to continuously cut. Like all puzzle elements, worms could be abused to make a room really tedious, but good architects will not place length 255 worms except for a good purpose. And if there is plenty of open space, once there are more worms, there would be more vulnerable spots. Interestingly however, the player would have to keep the number of worms under control and avoid making too many pieces too quickly. A single length 255 worm in an open room might actually be an interesting and fun battle, given a few checkpoints.
Or maybe they are vulnerable every X segments, for long Worms.
Possible, but I would much prefer that vulnerablity remains in the middle segments, where worm splitting effects become most prominent and the worm is most different from other long monsters. Otherwise, I can foresee rattlesnake-esque end-cutting behavior where you simply stick around one end of the worm to cut the closest vulnerable point, albeit with the difference that the worm will be attacking you from that end.



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[Last edited by Skylancer64 at 03-03-2007 02:39 PM]
03-03-2007 at 02:37 PM
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Elfstone
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quote:
d) I have to ask this what colour did you have in mind?

Not sure really. I think it would work better if the ends of a worm didn't look so explicitly like a head. I'm thinking maybe like earthworm-like graphics, perhaps with a white or tan or brown color. Of course, it could always be magenta.

hmmmm, black please; or a dark navy (with glittery bits) (in fact if the glittery bits converged on the cutting segment that would be useful as well as aesthetic)

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03-03-2007 at 03:57 PM
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Briareos
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Banjooie wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some mention of bazookas or ninja rope in this thread.

I was disappointed. :(
I hope it comes with "Monty Python" and "Angry Scots" soundsets, or I'll be *really* disappointed.

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03-03-2007 at 04:12 PM
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Someone Else
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Would it be able to cut through cracked/broken wall? An earthworm would seem to be able to do this, and it would add lots of puzzle potential. I am quite sure it is possible.
03-03-2007 at 07:34 PM
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Tombot
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When I read 'earthworm' I immediately concocted a mental image of a snake-like creature that could move through crumbly walls.

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03-03-2007 at 08:36 PM
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Watcher
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I rather like this idea. One thing I'd add is that if you stab the worm, the two parts that it splits into shouldn't move during that turn. Otherwise, it becomes far too difficult to attack the worm without being eaten immediately.

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03-03-2007 at 08:48 PM
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AtkinsSJ
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Watcher wrote:
I rather like this idea. One thing I'd add is that if you stab the worm, the two parts that it splits into shouldn't move during that turn. Otherwise, it becomes far too difficult to attack the worm without being eaten immediately.
I don't know:
W = Worm
B = Beethro
S = Sword

WWW
.S.
.B.

WSW
.B.

.S.
WBW

Then you can get them easily. I haven't thought of longer ones, though. Actually, if the worms were curled around towards you, yeah, it makes a difference. I think you're right. So all in all, there was no real point in me posting.
03-03-2007 at 09:06 PM
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silver
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AtkinsSJ wrote:
WWW
.S.
.B.

use the tags "code"..."/code" (with square brackets, not angle brackets) to make that look in display like it did when you wrote it (i.e. proportional, and thus lined up)


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03-06-2007 at 12:23 AM
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