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coppro
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I probably wouldn't mind it.

Another issue that would be nice to deal with is demos acquired while not connected to the internet. While I myself haven't encountered it, I play on a laptop, often on the go. As such, many of my demos don't get uploaded until I remember to press the 'Upload My Scores' button. This could be irritating if I cared.
02-23-2007 at 04:40 AM
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Schik
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coppro wrote:
I probably wouldn't mind it.

Another issue that would be nice to deal with is demos acquired while not connected to the internet. While I myself haven't encountered it, I play on a laptop, often on the go. As such, many of my demos don't get uploaded until I remember to press the 'Upload My Scores' button. This could be irritating if I cared.
I'm not sure what you want changed there. It's intentional that the upload time is used rather than the demo's internal timestamp. Otherwise you could take #1s away from people by setting your clock back.

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02-23-2007 at 04:45 AM
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Rabscuttle
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If I am trying for a #1, I will often download the other top demos at some point. When it comes to optimising rooms, two or more heads are better than one. And if someone makes a minor mistake, then they only have themselves to blame. It's happened to me countless times. And I've happened to other people. (countably many times)

My preferred method of score chasing is this:
* beat current #1
* look at other demos
* make improvements if possible.

Less preferred methods replace the word "beat" with "equal", "get close to" or "stuff it, just look at what they've done". I think that viewing the other demos first is bad as it tends to push your thinking onto a certain track - 'they've done it this way, so that must be the fastest way to do it'. It's also cool when you look at the other demos and find that they've done the room in a completely different way.

I should also say that I don't always upload after step 1, because I believe that looking at other people's demo is a valid strategy and I don't want to be people to look at my first solution and beat me while I'm still checking for improvements. (Although in reality it never happens, even with the lost #1 lists.)

That said, I don't really have any strong objection to the proposed changes. It was an equal playing field before and it'll be an equal playing field after. I will probably play 'uncompetitively' and if I am going to download I will make sure to do it before I upload any competitive scores. Holds generally do not see constant action once they have been out a while, so I think that the risk of being beaten within a week is pretty low. (and that's only if it is a week since you downloaded a demo.)

02-23-2007 at 05:26 AM
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NiroZ
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Schik wrote:

E: Clans
Okay, I don't understand this one.
Basically, grouping people into clans. In a clan, you can only see your clan's demoes, not anyone else's. Thus, sniping theirs doesn't achieve anything, and it would encourage people who are not all that good to help out the clan.

yeah, there's heaps of stuff that hasn't been thought out, but it's just a brainstorm.

[Last edited by NiroZ at 02-23-2007 06:05 AM]
02-23-2007 at 06:00 AM
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Stephen4Louise
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Schik wrote:
C: Download demo -> later uploads for that room timestamped +1 week
Pro: Players can download demos at any time, and are only "punished" for rooms they watched other demos for. Competitiveness is per-room rather than per person.
Con: Worries about this punishing people who aren't even trying to snipe a #1, or punish them indefinitely.
C2: Change the timestamp to be +1 week from their last demo download, or +1 week from the submission time of the demo beaten.
Pro: Addresses the Con in C.
Con: ??


........

Anyways, it seems like C2 is the best option to me. There are some parameters to tweak in there, but it seems like a compromise that should make most people happy.


I definately think C/C2 are the options to go for. At least it won't feel like we're losing another feature of CaravelNet.
As for the Con, I don't see that as a problem. If I decide to download a demo for a room and then happen to improve on it, in one way or another, I will know in advance that any scores are subject to a one week wait. So I'm really only conning myself.


My method of playing is much the same as what rabscuttle described, although I maybe don't chase as many scores.

If one of the C options is implemented I would still like to see a new table somewhere in the high score pages showing "pending #1's". Specifically showing my number one scores that are due to be beaten by a pending demo.

Steve.
02-23-2007 at 07:18 AM
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Remlin
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I'm not much of an optimizer. In fact, pretty much the only time I ever try to optimize is on the rare occasion I score a "natural" first place - that is to say, a first place that comes from just playing through the room normally without trying to optimize. I generally download a few demos to try to understand how my first place could have happened, and then I go back and optimize my own solution. I wouldn't consider those 'cheat' optimizations, so I would hope whatever method gets chosen wouldn't impose a week penalty on my optimizations.

I guess it's not too important, but I thought I'd put it out there as one more optimization style to keep in mind when figuring out a system here.
02-23-2007 at 07:20 AM
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Stephen4Louise
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I get what Remlin is saying, but I don't think there should be an exception to people who already hold the number one score. Say I get the number one score, download a pile of demos and then get beaten by someone. I will have an unfair advantage over everyone else playing the room.

Same thing about the con, if I decide to download the demo, I will have to accept the terms that my improvements will be pending for a week.

I still vote for C2.

Steve.
02-23-2007 at 07:26 AM
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Maurog
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I'll give you the Cons of C2:
- If it's a week from their demo download, people who know they're gonna use this option will all participate in a race of "who downloads it first" and will have a week to optimize it to the max, which looks really silly to me.
- If it's a week from the original demo's time, then everyone who used this option will arrive at #1 at once.

Good luck sorting it out, I still endorse option A.

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02-23-2007 at 07:50 AM
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Briareos
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Personally, I'm all for Cē, and totally against E.

I don't like the idea of factions if you the game itself doesn't facilitate it (i.e. if you can't play co-op at the same time).

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02-23-2007 at 07:53 AM
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Stephen4Louise
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Maurog wrote:
I'll give you the Cons of C2:
- If it's a week from their demo download, people who know they're gonna use this option will all participate in a race of "who downloads it first" and will have a week to optimize it to the max, which looks really silly to me.
- If it's a week from the original demo's time, then everyone who used this option will arrive at #1 at once.

I think you are overestimating the amount of people who download demos specifically to copy and enhance them.
Don't forget, that if my request is included, everyone will be able to see the pending scores, so if you download specifically to snipe a #1, everyone else will be able to see your score and have a shot at equaling it (and therefore getting the real #1) before the week is up. Potentially having a pending #1 will be like a big target on your score. The only disadvantage is for the demo downloaders. As it should be.

Steve.
02-23-2007 at 08:02 AM
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Maurog
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Well, I download demos and enhance them. I constantly do it to demos that are over 1 year old. So I don't mind C2 as long as it's C22 (i.e. a week from the beaten demo's timestamp), and as long as I can improve my own #1 without any silliness like a week long wait involved.

I am, however, extremely against C21 (a week from the point you download the demo), as this would mean I have to go and download all the #1 demos I can lay my grubby little paws on right now, and that sounds like work.

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02-23-2007 at 08:23 AM
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KevG
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Under the original system, a player who posted a flawed solution ran the risk of being beaten within hours by someone who simply copied their solution and fixed a small flaw. Under the new and proposed systems, that player might have to wait up to a week for their flawed solution to be beaten. The net result is going to be the same for the player. If a player wants to keep their #1 position, they had better submit a perfect solution. That won't change.

Yes, it is theoretically possible for someone to earn high scores by simply completing the room somehow and then copying and improving on the high score demo. Is that really a problem? Looking at the high scores table, I see 844 members. 2 players have over 1000 #1 scores, 16 have over 100, 53 have 10 or more, and only 133 have at least one.

The #1 scores are not very well distributed; they tend to wind up in the hands of the better players. I'm not really sure who this mythical sniper is that we have to be so afraid of that we have to overhaul the demo downloading system. If we could somehow make any of these new anti-sniping proposals retroactive, it wouldn't have a significant effect on the high score table.

I've sniped scores, I've been sniped; it's part of the game. I believe in using all resources available; and believe others should also. I download a lot of demos; people have downloaded a lot of mine. (I'm #8 on the downloaded demos list). It pretty much all evens out.

The current system just seems like a really bad idea. Smitemaster Selections were just eliminated from CaravelNet. Is it really a good idea to further reduce the value to prevent a problem most users could care less about? Also, what about TCB? Presumably buyers we'll be offered a free trial month of CaravelNet; it seems like it'll be a lot harder to convince them to sign up for the full year if they can't view TCB demos.

The problem with pretty much all the other proposals is that they introduce a new way of cheating. If you penalize people for downloading demos, then they'll look for other ways to acquire them. We'll need a "no #1 demos posted" rule for the forum. But, there's nothing to stop two or more players from collaborating and sharing demos. Now that you've introduced a practice that is legitimately cheating, you'll have to devote resources to attempt to curtail it.

Sniping happens, but it's never going to have a major affect on the high scores table. It's best to just accept that and return to the old system. DROD's demo system is unique. (And a major selling point of CaravelNet). Encouraging people to use that system to it's fullest seems to make more sense than looking for ways to curtail it. Especially when the problem being solve is only one that could be, not one that can actually be shown to need solving.
02-23-2007 at 02:35 PM
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Schik
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KevG wrote:
Under the original system, a player who posted a flawed solution ran the risk of being beaten within hours by someone who simply copied their solution and fixed a small flaw. Under the new and proposed systems, that player might have to wait up to a week for their flawed solution to be beaten. The net result is going to be the same for the player. If a player wants to keep their #1 position, they had better submit a perfect solution. That won't change.
No, not necessarily. If a player snipes a #1, but his timestamp has been +1 week'd, then the original #1 owner has one week to match or beat this sniper legitimately - i.e. without watching the demo and copying it - in order to retain his #1. I think this is fair, since the original #1 owner came up with the solution. This gives an advantage to players who can independently come up with optimized solutions. I think that's a good thing - I'd rather the competition stress who is good by themselves, not who is a good sniper.

The #1 scores are not very well distributed; they tend to wind up in the hands of the better players. I'm not really sure who this mythical sniper is that we have to be so afraid of that we have to overhaul the demo downloading system. If we could somehow make any of these new anti-sniping proposals retroactive, it wouldn't have a significant effect on the high score table.
My goal is not to evenly distribute the #1s - it's to reward skill over copying. While you might not be sure who this mythical sniper is, as an administrator with all kinds of interesting data in front of me, I am. I'm not going to throw any names out there, but they're there, and it happens. A lot. Heck, I'll admit that *I* have sniped. While I might get a little thrill finding a move that michthro screwed up and correcting it to get myself a #1, I... didn't *earn* it. I let him do all the hard work. It's like if I fixed that backtracking bug in KDD:L8:3S3E and then claimed that KDD was my creation.
I've sniped scores, I've been sniped; it's part of the game. I believe in using all resources available; and believe others should also. I download a lot of demos; people have downloaded a lot of mine. (I'm #8 on the downloaded demos list). It pretty much all evens out.
"it's part of the game" isn't a good reason to keep it. "If you die, you start over at the beginning of the room" was a part of the original DROD, but that flaw was corrected by adding checkpoints. The game evolves.
The current system just seems like a really bad idea. Smitemaster Selections were just eliminated from CaravelNet. Is it really a good idea to further reduce the value to prevent a problem most users could care less about? Also, what about TCB? Presumably buyers we'll be offered a free trial month of CaravelNet; it seems like it'll be a lot harder to convince them to sign up for the full year if they can't view TCB demos.
I don't really like the current system either. I'm trying to figure out what to change the system to. I don't think that trying to prevent #1 sniping is really reducing the value of CaravelNet. In fact, I'd bet a lot of people would think it increases the value. And it's just wrong to say they won't be able to view TCB demos. Assuming we go to some C-variant, they'll be able to watch as many as they want, whenever they want. But if they then snipe a #1, the original #1'er will have a chance to retain #1 by tying within a week.
The problem with pretty much all the other proposals is that they introduce a new way of cheating. If you penalize people for downloading demos, then they'll look for other ways to acquire them. We'll need a "no #1 demos posted" rule for the forum. But, there's nothing to stop two or more players from collaborating and sharing demos. Now that you've introduced a practice that is legitimately cheating, you'll have to devote resources to attempt to curtail it.
So if there's some weird, contrived way to cheat - like two people in dark basements covertly sending demos back and forth, one who cares about highscores and one who doesn't, all while smoking of course - then that means it's worse than the rampant sniping that happens today? I don't want to penalize people for downloading demos - I want to give the original #1 holder a chance to keep his #1 if someone snipes it. If you can beat the #1 without watching that #1, then... you win! You get the #1, hands down.
Sniping happens, but it's never going to have a major affect on the high scores table. It's best to just accept that and return to the old system. DROD's demo system is unique. (And a major selling point of CaravelNet). Encouraging people to use that system to it's fullest seems to make more sense than looking for ways to curtail it. Especially when the problem being solve is only one that could be, not one that can actually be shown to need solving.
Again, sorry to be curt, but I think I have access to more CaravelNet logs and stats than you do. Have you *looked* for a problem even, or are you just blindly saying there isn't one?

Our highscore system attempts to show who is the most optimal player. Making this change won't change that, in fact it will make it more true. If our system had zero competition and was just "let's, as a community, try to achieve the single best score possible for each room" then it would make sense to have the original completely unlimited system. Or if this were an action game where watching the demo didn't mean you could necessarily reproduce it. But for our system, some change makes sense.


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02-23-2007 at 05:06 PM
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Stephen4Louise
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Can we have demo downloads turned back on for now, at least until a solution is decided upon.

Another point that hasn't been made, will there be any distinction made between architects and players? Architects will already have demos for all rooms if their hold was in a beta board. I don't see it being a big problem, but it is something that should be clarified.

Steve.
02-23-2007 at 08:33 PM
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Maurog
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I feel a lot of sniper hate, so I just have to defend the snipers position:

Let me clarify my point of view (as an sniper) - I imagine holds as kingdoms and individual rooms as villages. Being an average working person without infinite free time, by the time I get to play any decent hold, it's already completely conquered, and usually more than half by the same person (let's call him M for the duration of this example). There's M's flag (#1) over every village in sight. Not only that, it is absolutely clear that some of the rooms vere trivial enough to be optimized on the first few runs, so claiming those is out of the question.

And so I go from village to village trying to get that elusive #1. And sometimes, yes, I find a flaw in M's solution and claim the room to myself. And yes, the original solution belongs to him. All I did was studying his solution turn-by-turn, finding a possible improvement and executing it, and running through the room a few more times trying to find flaws in my solution.

What Schik is proposing (if I get it right) is basically an early warning beacon that will say "dude, your solution wasn't perfect. Some wiseguy just found a way to improve it. But here's the deal, figure out how he did it within a week and you can keep the room".

Now, I'm pretty confident in my abilities. Give me time (a lot of time), and I can figure out the solution without downloading the #1 score. And it will be better, because the original solution was flawed. But I just don't have that kind of time... so my only point in defense of sniping will be this:

Eliminating "sniping" may tip the scales in favor of people with more time to spare, and in my humble opinion, they have a considerable advantage already.

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02-23-2007 at 09:24 PM
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noma
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"In the beginning there was a Journey. But the way was dark and the direction uncertain. There were mighty struggles, great trials and much tribulation. Monsters were overcome and levels conquered, but at great cost. Many lives were lost. Many moves were sacrificed. And lo, one day, a stranger spake, "Look ye to the Demo Screen. Watch. Learn. Much will be revealed." And so it was the apprentice watched. The apprentice learned. And a light dawned. But knowledge gained must be practiced and verily the apprentice practiced. And thus the Journey continued, passing through foreign Kingdoms and distant lands. Armed with such a boon companion, the apprentice could seek enlightenment and strive towards perfection throughout the long Journey and beyond."

Enough... it's too hard (and silly) to keep the metaphor going. You get the idea.

The following is secreted as it is very long and mostly dull. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Click here to view the secret text

My rambling is complete. I will get to my final thoughts:

1. I like demos being greyed out. (see above)

2. I want the choice to download a demo (for those rooms that give me grief) but I still want to remain competitive. I may not be a contender now, but I'd like my scores to count towards the distant future when I may be one.

My vote for a solution: uploads must be executed manually using the "Upload" button. Demos for rooms you have not yet uploaded will remain greyed out so that you can see the number of moves and decide if you want to try a room again. After upload, the demos become available for download. If however, a score for that room is re-uploaded after a demo is downloaded, then that score won't be "counted" for 1 week. (Honestly, I wouldn't care if it wasn't counted for a month but that may be asking too much.)

That's my two (okay probably one hundred) cents. Perhaps someone can tell me if this is C2, C3, B12... I'm totally confused at this point.
02-23-2007 at 09:34 PM
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AlefBet
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Maurog wrote:
I feel a lot of sniper hate, so I just have to defend the snipers position:....
I'd like to clarify my position, too. I don't see anything wrong with sniping in general. If someone solves a room and gets a #1 and calls it good, moving on to better things, I think there's nothing wrong with those who follow learning from his/her technique and improving on it. If a delver leaves a flaw in a demo, there's nothing wrong IMO with another delver improving on it and capturing that score, especially if it's been weeks/months since the first delver went through.

What I think we're trying to guard against here is a delver being sniped before they've even had a chance to notice a flaw and fix it. I think that's a bit of a cheap shot. So, to sum up my view: Sniping stale demos: perfectly fine. Sniping fresh demos: low blow.

I know most people here have moved off this idea, but I think the short delay in availability of new #1s is a great solution to this. Maybe a week is a bit painful, so how about two days? I think that would give the original delver a fair shake at reflecting on the solution and fixing any flaws.

As a point of interest: Sniping was discussed a good amount before CaravelNet was released, and one of the solutions that was seriously considered was to make demos generally private, or private by default. I think the Caravel team finally came to a good conclusion that the general availability of winning demos was a good value add.

I still believe that, but in my opinion, making only brand new demos unavailable for a short time won't negate that.

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02-23-2007 at 09:49 PM
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Maurog
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For the record: I'm all for guarding against sniping fresh demos. And people also want to download demos right away. Giving the freshly acquired #1 some time of "special status" in which the original owner can improve it without fear of others sniping is a great thing.

I will however fight to the death for my right to snipe stale demos.

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02-23-2007 at 10:06 PM
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Schik
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I don't see a big difference between sniping fresh #1s and sniping stale #1s. Either way, the sniper is taking someone else's hard work and getting credit for it. If we make stale #1-sniping acceptable, then it just means snipers will wait until #1s get crusty before sniping them, so the original #1er can't take it back. It doesn't really solve anything.

I don't hate snipers - in fact, it's probably my best chance of getting #1s - but I don't think that people should get as much credit for copying someone else's demo (regardless of age) as they get for being creative and independently coming up with the solution.

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02-23-2007 at 10:20 PM
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....

The number one demo is untouchable. The number two and lower demos are viewable at all times.
02-23-2007 at 10:32 PM
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Maurog
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I don't see much difference between optimizing a #1 demo due to a flaw, and optimizing the #2 demo twice due to two flaws. So don't you want to protect the #2's too? In fact, all the top demos?

Anyway, I believe that if you leave an unperfect demo as your #1, you deserve to be sniped, and you don't deserve a second chance. The amount of work is irrelevant, because right now the #1 is a gradual improvement. The current leader based his solution on previous one, the previous on the one before him and so on. There is no instant 300+ move winning solution that the top guy can take all the credit for.

And sniping is not as easy as you make it sound. You have to come to every room with a sniping attitude, which says "This room can be optimized. There is a flaw, and I will find it." It means trying again and again in every room, and most of the time not getting results.

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[Last edited by Maurog at 02-24-2007 12:44 AM]
02-23-2007 at 10:48 PM
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
I find it fascinating that a fair number of competetive players would prefer to select the "uncompetetive" mode in the uncompetetive/competetive option, even if it is irreversible. I think this is suggesting the 2 point advantage or a true number one is trivial compared to the advantage of viewing demos. It also immediately suggests this would be a broken system.

Personally, I like the time delay. The closest I get to sniping is to look at the MOVE COUNT for #1s to try to match them. Without downloading the demo. I don't doubt some people snipe. But the most frequent snipers are probably the leader board in general. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Because whoever beats a #1 this way is still open to have their own #1 taken in the same way.

If you give a few days between claiming a #1 and having the demo available, then, if the player is going to seriously try to better their own #1 before anyone else does, they get their chance. And if they don't TAKE that chance then, I think its only fair for anyone who wants to try to choose to build on their effort. I mean THEY can review their own demo, copy it move for move without adding any new work to it, and use it as a springboard. And to do that early on is fair. But to have a special privelege to be the only one allowed to copy (without penalty), forever, doesn't seem fair. Even if they are only copying themselves from lets say 2 months ago.

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[Last edited by Beef Row at 02-23-2007 11:03 PM : added 'without penalty']
02-23-2007 at 11:03 PM
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NiroZ
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+1)  
Maurog wrote:
Now, I'm pretty confident in my abilities. Give me time (a lot of time), and I can figure out the solution without downloading the #1 score. And it will be better, because the original solution was flawed. But I just don't have that kind of time... so my only point in defense of sniping will be this:

Eliminating "sniping" may tip the scales in favor of people with more time to spare, and in my humble opinion, they have a considerable advantage already.
That is exactly what I what I was trying to fix by suggesting clans. Working as a team encourages everyone to work together, rather than for themselves, which means those of us who are not all that good can still help out.

Maurog wrote:
I don't see much difference between optimizing a #1 demo due to a flaw, and optimizing the #2 demo twice due to two flaws. So don't you want to protect the #2's too? In fact, all the top demos?

Anyway, I believe that if you leave an unperfect demo as your #1, you deserve to be sniped, and you don't deserve a second chance. The amount of work is irrelevant, because right now the #1 is a gradual improvement. The current leader based his solution on previous one, the previous on the one before him and so on. There is no instant 300+ move winning solution that the top guy can take all the credit for.
So, if I entered a writing competition, where all the entires had been displayed in public, and someone looks through my (winning)entry and fixes a grammatical mistake, then submits it as his own, who's work is it? Who deserves to win? (assuming that the judges turn a blind eye to it, of course)
02-23-2007 at 11:35 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+2)  
Maurog wrote:
I don't see much difference between optimizing a #1 demo due to a flaw, and optimizing the #2 demo twice due to two flaws. So don't you want to protect the #2's too? In fact, all the top demos?
Yeah. I'll probably make it so that downloading any demo better than your current best on CaravelNet will put a delay on your uploads for that room.
Anyway, I believe that if you leave an unperfect demo as your #1, you deserve to be sniped, and you don't deserve a second chance.
I'm sorry you believe that. I believe an imperfect #1 deserves to be beaten by someone who independently comes up with a better solution, but not by someone who achieves a better score by copying.

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[Last edited by Schik at 02-24-2007 01:59 AM]
02-24-2007 at 12:42 AM
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silver
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
Schik wrote:
I don't see a big difference between sniping fresh #1s and sniping stale #1s. Either way, the sniper is taking someone else's hard work and getting credit for it. If we make stale #1-sniping acceptable, then it just means snipers will wait until #1s get crusty before sniping them, so the original #1er can't take it back. It doesn't really solve anything.

While your later sentences and conclusion may be true, the first sentence is not precisely true: there is a big difference between sniping a fresh and sniping a stale #1 - that of attention.

basically, if I copy and tweak a year old #1, then the original author has a week to respond... a week that I chose based on my schedule. the original author may have forgotten the hold, or may be on vacation in a distant land, or may be busy with finals (or a work deadline for the older players).

-----

and we're all ignoring the issue of rooms with multiple puzzle parts. all the copy and tweak examples are things like "correcting wall bumps", but it's easy to imagine a room with goblin management in one part, and roach management in another. it's possible to optimize the goblin management and flub the roach management. and vice versa. imagine the perfect solution for a room involves adding G + R moves together. however, the current #1 solution is G' + R moves. let us say that Example Person makes a solution with G + R' moves.

now if G' - G > R' - R, the #1 person keeps their #1. in this case, if Example Person copies R from the current #1, he's seen as sniping. even though he independently created the G solution which was better than G'. but it was arbitrary, because it depended only on the magnitude of errors in the two halves. in a way he is sniping, because he copied, but: if the old #1 scorer blatantly copies the G solution from the #2 demo submitted by Example Person, they get credit for "improving their own score independently" when what they're really doing is copying! oi vey.

-----

of course, it's also possible to view the #1 and improve it without copying it. in my example, if Example Person had gotten #2 for his G + R' solution, they might say "what?! I was perfect!" and watch the #1 demo. seeing that they did, indeed, have a better solution to the goblin part, they might think, "oh, so the roach part was just worth more moves, and clearly I wasn't perfect there. I'll have to work on my roach management skills". then they go on to practice with roaches for six days and come back and manage to get the G + R solution without looking at the old #1 again. but they might just be tied for first place because the old #1, seeing that he has a week to improve, copies the G solution, but isn't seen as sniping. so now Example Person has independently invented the #1 solution, but can't get the #1 place. whereas the old #1 has only independently half the solution, and gets full credit.

of course, much of this confusion can be circumvented by making any hold download a penalty - even if the #1 player downloads the #10 demo, the #1 player might be self-sniping by copying part of the #10 demo rather than inventing it.

-----

the beauty of my goal - merely to beat all the rooms once, is that no one can accuse me of cheating :)


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[Last edited by silver at 02-24-2007 03:07 AM]
02-24-2007 at 02:46 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
So if you look, the person you beat will know that you have uploaded a better score and have a week to beat you - no matter how much time there was between downloading and uploading?

I don't know about that. I mean, if I knew that someone would be beating my score in a week, I probably would be petty enough to try to stop them from doing it (depending on the room)

But if there is a situation where someone chooses not to look at one of my demos, and so doesn't find any improvement and the room stays unoptimised. Man, that would suck. I want all rooms to be optimised.

I don't like equal firsts either, and I'm pretty sure I'd end up with more of them under this method. hmmm. *shrug*
02-24-2007 at 04:29 AM
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halyavin
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+1)  
Just want to say that I like all Schik variants. It will be even better if there is an option to upload demo and mark it non-downloadable (clan variant include this option already) ;) . So you will not receive a points for it (except 1 by default); this demo will be shown on high-scores screen but doesn't affect places. I doubt anyone except me will use such option though :look .
02-24-2007 at 06:59 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (+1)  
Schik wrote:
Again, sorry to be curt, but I think I have access to more CaravelNet logs and stats than you do. Have you *looked* for a problem even, or are you just blindly saying there isn't one?

So, Schik, maybe you could share some of this information with us - I'd love to know some of the actual statistics. How much correlation is there between #1 scores beaten and #1 demos downloaded prior?

Beyond that, how much copying is actually going on, as opposed to just inspiration? In quite a few rooms, I download the #1 demo, then play it sped to maximum speed, in order to get a vague idea of the order of operations. I am neither able, nor interested, to copy exact moves, or to analyze mistakes, but I certainly am learning how to get the spirit of the solution. Does that count as copying by your definition?

Facts aside, I must say that as far as scoring philosophy goes, I belong to the camp that thinks that this entire effort is misguided in a basic way. I think there is no problem, because I don't see the copy-and-fix strategy as being problematic. I would much rather you do not try to enforce any of your solutions. Though if we have to have any solution, I would agree C2 is the best one.


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02-24-2007 at 07:40 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
At the risk of completely convincing everyone that I'm the one and only sniper on CaravelNet, and Schik tries to change the system to protect against me personally, I will add one last post.

You see, I am pretty much perfectionist. I want all my scores to be at least #2 (that is, shared #1). Currently, becoming #2 is easy - all you need to do is download the #1 demo, check out the solution and copy it, sometimes move-by-move. This may look a bit questionable to some people, but it is actually completely legal. In fact, the easy #2's is one of the changes I was extremely opposed to in last Schik's demo change discussion thread, so I don't feel any remorse at all.

Now, #1's are much trickier - when you come into a room, there usually are several #2's by very competent people. That is, some really good people came into the room, tried to optimize the solution with or without demos (or just copied it, that's legal too), and didn't beat the current #1. So yeah, I analyze the solution, and sometimes you can improve. And sometimes even improving some part by one or two moves doesn't get you a better score (because of queen timing, etc). But this takes time, and effort, and even if I manage to improve the score, there is an additional phase of checking the new solution for yet more flaws.

So my point is - if a special defense is introduced to protect these #1's, I won't bother... it's a heck of an effort already for the 3 extra points. I just do it for myself really, because scorewise, it's much smarter to just go rampant with the #2's and forget the #1's altogether. And just as eytanz pointed out, anything that makes the rooms get more optimized is a good thing. That's just personal opinion of course, other people may have completely opposite views of what's good for the system and I respect that.

The community will adapt to any changes introduced by people in charge. There may be some bickering at first, but even the most unpopular change to the system will get accepted. And if it's radical enough, behavior patterns will change and sometimes new patterns will emerge. The system is a living thing. And you have to have a lot of guts to perform any surgery on it. I'm sure glad it's not my responsibility...

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02-24-2007 at 01:00 PM
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KevG
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icon Re: Small change in in-game demo downloads (0)  
I like the idea that I can look at other people's demos and use their ideas in mine. I like that they can do the same to mine. I've especially enjoyed the times I've gotten into sniping contests with other players.

DROD operates on two levels. At the micro-level, optimising the room is the most important goal. I believe that letting people make use of each others work to achieve that goal is a good thing. Yes, sometimes someone will wind with a score they don't truly deserve, but it doesn't really matter.

Why? Because the high score system operates on the macro-level. It compares players' performances on thousands of rooms. A quick look at the distribution of #1s shows that they have a tendancy to wind up in the hands of the better players. At the macro-level, the effects of sniping seem pretty much insignificant.

[Last edited by KevG at 02-24-2007 02:35 PM]
02-24-2007 at 02:34 PM
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