Kevin_P86
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 535
Registered: 06-28-2005
IP: Logged

malkav11 wrote:
But Caravel.net itself (new features included) feels like something that should just be a built in component of a purchased copy of the game, not a subscription service.

The reason it is a subscription service and not provided for free is because it isn't free for Caravel to provide it. They need to pay for server maintainance and bandwidth, which is what the CaravelNet fee goes towards.

____________________________
+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++>+++++<<<-]>.>+.>-------.<++++.+++++.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

malkav11 wrote:
It absolutely adds that extra zing but it's just not exciting enough in and of itself for me to spend money on it. Perhaps if I could pay the $12 at $1 monthly, I'd feel differently (yes, it's the same amount of money, but it's more flexible and, well, $12 registers on my budget. $1 is impulse purchase fare.).

Caravelnet isn't a straight transaction (nor are most things). Ever heard of a thing called break even analysis? It's where you combine both the immediate cost of the product(like the transaction fee) and ongoing costs (like buying the server, paying someone to maintain the site), set a price for the product and then draw a graph to see how many sales it will take to 'break even' or ensure that they are not selling at a loss.

Although I have no idea what the statistics are behind caravelnet, I'm willing to bet that huge part of the cost is is in ongoing costs, thus $12 per year is a HUGE improvement to Carvel as opposed to $1 per month, even though it makes no real difference to the end consumer.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I feel slightly bad about saying twelve bucks is really cheap. Price and value are always relative. One man's "cheap" is another man's "expensive". You can live in a country where twelve bucks is hard to come by. You can be a kid without access to money, a pensioner on a fixed income, or unemployed. I've had a few points in my life, living on ramen and baked potatoes, where I wouldn't dream of spending money on a computer game.

You are absolutely welcome to have a poor opinion of the new prices. I don't think every single person will be happy with the changes, but I believe most people will.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

malkav11
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 59
Registered: 01-05-2007
IP: Logged

Well...12 bucks is hugely, insanely cheap - for 4 SMSes. I'm frankly surprised that particular deal lasted as long as it has. For the rest of it...hey, 12 bucks a year is still very cheap as subscriptions go. For the optimizers and soon for the chatters, I'm sure it's a heck of a bargain. I just don't really need any of that. Not a high score person, never have been.

And I understand why it costs, and I never figured $1 monthly was practical...though I'd probably be willing to pay $2, come to that. It's all a matter of spreading out the impact - for example, I have an ongoing subscription to a site that would run me $4 a month if paid annually, but I pay $9 instead because I can much more easily spare $9 every month than I can $48 the one month a year that that subscription renews. Maybe if I saved better... :p

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

malkav11 wrote:
Well...12 bucks is hugely, insanely cheap - for 4 SMSes. I'm frankly surprised that particular deal lasted as long as it has. For the rest of it...hey, 12 bucks a year is still very cheap as subscriptions go. For the optimizers, people too lazy to import holds, soon for the chatters Architects and beta-testers. I'm sure it's a heck of a bargain I just don't really need any of that. Not a high score person, never have been.

Fixed

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 02-22-2007 11:20 AM]

malkav11
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 59
Registered: 01-05-2007
IP: Logged

Fair enough. Still not any of the above.

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Will people who do not purchase the SMSs have access to the new elements? I'm not saying that I won't, and I can't imagine the answer being no, but I still felt it needed to be asked.

____________________________

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

From my reading of what Erik said, I'm assuming that the new elements will be added to the engine in a patch that is independent of the Smitemaster Selection highlighting it. This would be consistent with Caravel's policy of keeping the engine free. But, that's obviously not the official word.

I have yet another question concerning download credits. I'm a charter CarvelNet subscriber who took advantage of the free three months when renewing offer. I'm also a charter subcriber to the SmS CDs. I have no intention of letting either subscription lapse. What, if any, good are download credits?

I'm asking mainly out of curiosity; and because I know there are probably a number of other people with the same situation. There's no good reason why they should be good for anything other than their stated purpose. I freely chose to order the SmS CDs knowing I could get the holds for free through CaravelNet. But, what the heck, it doesn't hurt to ask and see.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

silver wrote:
there are other questions in this thread which aren't related to SmS-credits. they're just being buried in the deluge.

Sigh. I honestly haven't had time to answer them all. I get home from day job work. I sit down at my computer and answer e-mails. And then if there is time after that, I pick out a few things on the forum that seem more important and respond. And then it's time to go to bed.

I'll see if I can do a quick scan now and give some brief answers.

-Erik


____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

TripleM wrote:
Now that I've calmed down somewhat, I have one thing I just want a little clarification on.. I'm assuming the new additions to the editor will be available for free; its just that the Smitemaster's Selections will be using them / showing them off? Is that right?

Yes, it is part of our open source charter that all new features of DROD that are provided by the DROD executable itself would be publicly available.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Briareos wrote:
So am I correct that if I now buy a CaravelNet extension (since my current subscription expires on the 30th of August, and I really have no intention to let it lapse in the near-to-moderately-far future) I'll get 4 SmSes, plus the one I was credited when the fall SmS was skipped?

You'll get 4 - X on an active subcription, with X being whatever Selections or download credits were delivered to you already. Plus you'll get 4 more credits on the second renewal subscription that begins this year.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Tim wrote:
Just a stupid question, is it possible in anyway for architects to detect which version of TCB is installed? (with all those new additional monsters and so on this is going to be so much more interesting...)

I would say probably not, but the implementation details of delivering CaravelNet holds to different versions of DROD haven't been decided yet by Mike and Schik.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

RoboBob3000 wrote:
One thing that strikes me about linking new SmS-es (hey, I dare you to try and pluralize that) with new elements is that it is now no longer possible for Average-Joe-With-An-Eight-Point-Oh to submit an SmS candidate with the new element before its release.

How will this be addressed? Some sort of recruitment process or an overhaul of SmS authoring altogether? Or some other infinitely more clever solution?

What Eytan said mirrors my own thoughts.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

silver wrote:
you mean a hold, maybe? or will this be reserved for SmSs? (if so, why?)

No feature is reserved just for SmS. I'm not going to go into the details of that particular feature.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Alneyan wrote:
So, I suppose no perfect solution for international purchases has been devised during the last year? Well, besides manipulationg people, that is... or just moving over to the more civilised England (September is pretty far away, though).

The payment options remain the same, and to be honest, we probably won't mess with them without going through a large amount of work to overhaul our e-commerce system.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

hyphz wrote:
Well the format used for adding new elements be included in the DROD 3.0 open source so people can design their own, or will they be hidden somehow? Or perhaps the official ones could be signed with an RSA key, so people could still make unofficial ones that would get overridden by official ones?

You can get the open source anytime you want (now!) and start adding elements. Getting your new elements into the official distribution of DROD or any kind of publicly distributable form that is independant of the all-rights-reserved licensing on our media is a more difficult prospect. There is no kind of modular support of game elements--they are either in the executable or not.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Pinnacle wrote:
Since I renewed my CaravelNet membership during last year's 3-extra-months offer, do I get 5-(number of SmS's released before August 6 2007) credits?

That's a good question. Yes, if the duration of one membership is longer for some reason, then an extra credit would be awarded. So it is Y - X, where Y is number of months in membership divided by three, rounded down.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Albert wrote:
I've looked at the page that describes Caravelnet before telling you to buy it, and somewhere in there it says not to buy membership that extends beyond next year. What exactly happens if I do?

We get anxious about the liability of providing CaravelNet that far into the future and make a decision as to whether or not to refund the order.

My membership currently ends on 25/01/08, so if I bought another year, would it just cut it a bit short and stop at 31/12/08, or would it not accept my order at all?

The order page will accept it. However, the order might be manually refunded later.

This is a bit unrelated to the question, but I wouldn't say that viewing room images in H&S is a Caravelnet-exclusive feature. The only rooms that that applies to are the ones in minority of holds that are marked so that their rooms aren't shown in H&S until you've seen them in-game. And being able to view those rooms if you have Caravelnet isn't really a feature in itself, it's just a side-effect of the fact that Caravelnet tells the forum about your progess.

Agreed.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Bombadil
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 523
Registered: 06-01-2005
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:

hyphz wrote:
Well the format used for adding new elements be included in the DROD 3.0 open source so people can design their own, or will they be hidden somehow?

You can get the open source anytime you want (now!)

-Erik

I want the 3.0 source (now!)

Thanks.

hyphz
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 34
Registered: 01-02-2006
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
You can get the open source anytime you want (now!) and start adding elements. Getting your new elements into the official distribution of DROD or any kind of publicly distributable form that is independant of the all-rights-reserved licensing on our media is a more difficult prospect. There is no kind of modular support of game elements--they are either in the executable or not.

Thanks very much for answering! So this confirms that new elements will be added by patches to the executable, and then just highlighted by SmS's. I think some people, including myself, took

ErikH2000 wrote:
Now, the other thing that will make Smitemaster's Selections very interesting is our plans to release some of them simultaneously with one or two new elements added to the game engine.

to potentially indicate that the new elements would be bundled into the SmS download, thus making it an "expansion pack". But if element updates and SmSs are seperate threads that makes things much clearer (and easier to deal with ) Thanks!

---

[Last edited by hyphz at 02-22-2007 05:45 PM]

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Bombadil wrote:
I want the 3.0 source (now!)

Heh heh. To be clear, you can get the 2.0 source now and the 3.0 source shortly after the release of DROD: The City Beneath.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

hyphz wrote:
Thanks very much for answering! So this confirms that new elements will be added by patches to the executable, and then just highlighted by SmS's.

Exactly.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

malkav11 wrote:
Fair enough. Still not any of the above.

I think malkav11 has a point. And furthermore I think it's good publicity the more people that have CaravelNet (everything runs smoother, and you will probably be more likely to buy other things). You probably already have considered this, but it might be worth it to include one year of CaravelNet with four (or six, or whatever) SMS purchases. Or you might even want to include one year of CaravelNet with buying JTRH, TCB or KDD 2.0. It's not that CaravelNet isn't worth 12$ a year. It's rather the fact that before you have tried it for some time you might not see the need for it.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

well, you do get a /month/, as I recall. I'm personally not sure whether to renew my CaravelNet account--if I do, it will be mostly because I like giving Erik money to continue making games, not so much any innate desire to download demos and ask people how I smite for fish in the middle of a hold. (That, and I haven't BEATEN an SS since, well, Smitemastery notwithstanding, I think, like, Halph has a bad day? Yeah. I haf none skilz!)

That said: Seriously, I can see buying CaravelNet just on the grounds that it helps convince these fine people to keep making games.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
well, you do get a /month/, as I recall. I'm personally not sure whether to renew my CaravelNet account--if I do, it will be mostly because I like giving Erik money to continue making games, not so much any innate desire to download demos and ask people how I smite for fish in the middle of a hold. (That, and I haven't BEATEN an SS since, well, Smitemastery notwithstanding, I think, like, Halph has a bad day? Yeah. I haf none skilz!)

That said: Seriously, I can see buying CaravelNet just on the grounds that it helps convince these fine people to keep making games.

Sure. I'm sure lots of people buy stuff to support DROD. But it is more probable to reach that point if you're really hooked (have played lot's of user holds, for example, and have had a really smooth experience doing so.) I think handing out a year of CaravelNet with a mayor purchase might be benefical. It's just a guess, but it might be worth to consider now that SMS holds are no longer included in CaravelNet.

masonjason
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 349
Registered: 12-29-2003
IP: Logged

Can I ask - is it possible that there will be any way to get CaravelNet through a proxy so that I can access it at university?

____________________________
Eighty people came to the bazaar.

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

masonjason wrote:
Can I ask - is it possible that there will be any way to get CaravelNet through a proxy so that I can access it at university?

http_proxy=http://<ip address>:<port>/ (as in "setting the environment variable http_proxy to your proxy's address") is your friend.

An outgoing SSH tunnel from your SSH server to forum.caravelgames.com:80 set as the http_proxy also works, which is what I do at work since DROD has no SOCKS support...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Stephen4Louise
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 04-06-2005
IP: Logged

masonjason wrote:
Can I ask - is it possible that there will be any way to get CaravelNet through a proxy so that I can access it at university?

I use a batch file on my work PC to access CaravelNet. Copy the following into a text file and save as drod.bat in the same directory as DROD.exe....

set http_proxy=domain\username:password@XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX:80
drod.exe

"domain\username:password@" can be removed if your proxy doesn't require authentication. Put the proxy IP in place of the X's. Save and test.

If you have any problems have a look over here for more advice.

Steve.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Briareos wrote:
An outgoing SSH tunnel from your SSH server to forum.caravelgames.com:80 set as the http_proxy also works, which is what I do at work since DROD has no SOCKS support...

I don't understand why we would use SOCKS, when our messages are standard HTTP requests. My understanding is that SOCKS would package up our messages as standard HTTP requests. Redundant, right?

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
I don't understand why we would use SOCKS, when our messages are standard HTTP requests. My understanding is that SOCKS would package up our messages as standard HTTP requests. Redundant, right?

SOCKS is a proxy protocol to allow any kinds of TCP connections through a SOCKS proxy server. Instead of making a TCP connection to the server, then sending your HTTP request you make a TCP connection to the SOCKS proxy, request a connection to the real server, then send the very same HTTP request and treat it as if it were a direct connection.

libcurl, which DROD apparently uses, contains support for using a SOCKS proxy, but that support can't be activated by simply setting an environment variable, that's why I'm asking.

As for why I'm using SOCKS at work - that's what any SSH server in combination with PuTTY or another SSH client gives you to tunnel arbitrary connections. It's also the only form of proxy that you really can use with Thunderbird, for example.

Of course, all this is moot if DROD supports NTLM authentication to make our proxy happy, but I really haven't tried that lately...

np: Gescom - Keynell 4 (Keynell EP)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

---

[Last edited by Briareos at 02-23-2007 04:43 PM]