zaubberer
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hi,

in the last weeks i played Trackmania Nations again. and again...

it's a racing game (i believe that some of you played it to), but there isn't a direct competition to win. you drive against the clock to get medals. in the downloadable package (some more than 260 mb!) there are contained 100 tracks in four difficultiy levels. so you can start with the easy tracks and rise up to a master driver. you will find loopings, hazardous jumps and (imho the best features of TMN) you can test your skills online with other players or download thousands of player-made tracks. there are some more editions of Trackmania, but those are not for free.

i really enjoy this game until TCB reaches the 100%-line

zaubberer

b0rsuk
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It contains Starforce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarForce#Reputation

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http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051128/adams_01.shtml

Tombot
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People deliberatly download no-CD patches just so they don't have to worry about it. It's actualy come to the point that the actual sales of games are in jeapordy because it contains starforce. Event the creators of starforce don't like using it and think it was a mistake. Starforce tarnishes peoples computers and leaves them weak and decaying, leaving them as useless badly running buggy pieces of rubbish who's only hope of redemption is a complete system reformat.

I tried Trackmania myself, it is not worth the risk in my opinion.

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Alneyan
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The stars are falling! Hail the Great Old Ones!

Krishh
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Tombot wrote:
Starforce tarnishes peoples computers and leaves them weak and decaying, leaving them as useless badly running buggy pieces of rubbish who's only hope of redemption is a complete system reformat.

You're kidding, right?

While I don't see the point of including Starforce with TMU, since a mount&play clone-cd is released pretty much on the same day as the game for Starforce protected games now, you are blowing this way out of proportion.

What the Starforce drivers could do was cause an exploitable sytem vulnerability (although I don't know any virii that exploited it), very rarely cause an optical drive to stop working, and even more rarely, if ever, cause system instability.

However, TMU does NOT include the Starforce drivers, and just runs a cd-check when running the game. Thus not being prone to most of the problems usually associated with Starforce. I mean, there might still be some risk , though I don't see how it can really do anything that bad without the drivers, but if you're passing up TMU just because it has Starforce, you're simply being either paranaoid or stubborn.

Tombot
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*cough*

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How dare you call me a paranoid schizophrenic, I'll kill you. ALL OF YOU!!!

Krishh
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With the possible exception of the reboot during cd-check, the problems listed on that page involve the Starforce drivers, which Trackmania United doesn't use.

Edit: Apparently, I can't read. This thread is about Trackmania Nations, which do use the drivers. My bad. however the newest (but not free) Trackmania doesn't.

And I still think Trackmania Nations is worth the risk. it's really fun game, and you probably won't have any problems with Starforce. ( I mean, the chances are pretty slim. And problems that can't be fixed by removing the drivers are even rarer.) Besides, it's not like you can effectivly boycott it if you're doing it to make a stand, what with it being free.

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[Last edited by Krishh at 01-28-2007 02:21 PM]

malkav11
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What I don't understand is why copy protect a free game? Especially with one of the worst copy protection methods currently on the market?

Tombot
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The world may never know.

But my geuss is that it is to stop cheaters.

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How dare you call me a paranoid schizophrenic, I'll kill you. ALL OF YOU!!!

Syntax
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Ok, not sure what all this talk of copyright protection is about. Trackmania Nations does not need to be burnt do CD/DVD or mounted. It's 100% free and excellent fun. It's almost like a mixture of "sensible" marble blast and old-school Stunts. The online play is easy to take part in and the graphics are excellent as is the sound (though I had to update my sound drivers originally).

I'd heartily recommend this to anyone who enjoys "challenge" mode technical yet short racing games. There are at least 90 challenging tech tracks and what seems to be a limitless supply of online ones (mostly extremely hard though that may depend on the server).

By far the best racing game I've encountered in a long time, and alongside Drod and Subterra I/II, one of the more enjoyable games I've played in the last year.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention

Tim
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Krishh wrote:
Besides, it's not like you can effectivly boycott it if you're doing it to make a stand, what with it being free.

That's nonsense. So you're not boycotting something because it's free?
So my dear Snow White, if I gave you a poisoned apple for free, would you eat it?

I've not bought some games because of Starforce, and if you (I mean the publisher) think they can get away with it, then let me tell you that you are competing against other better and more user-friendly games. DROD, to name one. (But I could also mention Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, ICO, Within a deep forest, or any other classics...) (and I've still got a sealed version of Full Throttle lying here waiting for me to play... But then I'm a really busy person... )

Krishh
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Using most definitions of boycott, (google define: boycott) it means refusing to do business with someone in order to protest against them and punish them. I'm not sure downloading free software constitutes doing business, and I don't think you really punish them by not downloading their free game.

Your analogy is flawed, you can't boycott the apple, you can boycott the evil witch. (Or the nice old lady, if I remember the story right) You can choose to no eat the free apple if you think the risk of poisoning is too high for you.

All I'm saying is, don't skip this game because you don't play Starforce protected games as a matter of principle. You can evaluate the actual risks of installing the Starforce drivers versus a free version of one of the best racing games ever, and if you think they're too high, fine.

And I could mention that none of the games in your list that Trackmania is competing against feature level building and fastpaced platforming. (Because, in a way, Trackmania is more like a platformer, or a Marble Madness-like game at 700 km/h than a conventional racing game.) It's a different genre.

Tim
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Krishh wrote:
I'm not sure downloading free software constitutes doing business, and I don't think you really punish them by not downloading their free game.

I'm not American enough to understand what boycott here means, and perhaps not downloading is not boycotting, and therefore I think I should also say it clear that I do not ever want to be involved in something like that.

Your analogy is flawed, you can't boycott the apple, you can boycott the evil witch. (Or the nice old lady, if I remember the story right) You can choose to no eat the free apple if you think the risk of poisoning is too high for you.

I think my analogy is correct, as I think the risk of poisoning my computer is too high. And yes, it's possible to refuse the product but not the messenger.

All I'm saying is, don't skip this game because you don't play Starforce protected games as a matter of principle. You can evaluate the actual risks of installing the Starforce drivers versus a free version of one of the best racing games ever, and if you think they're too high, fine.

Part of it is of course principle, because accepting something like that erodes consumer rights (which do exist in other countries than yours), and it only means that they can get away with it. As a result every new game will have this kind of protection, and I don't like that.

But also, I just don't want to put software in my computer that probably will harm my computer. And I think that's a sound principle. Your milage may vary.

-- Tim

Although, and I must say that, I've got a magazine DVD version of Nations, so I don't think it's got Starforce in there. But IIRC, a third reason was that my computer was too slow according to the magazine.

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Mattcrampy
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I think that much of the hyperbole surrounding Starforce is to ensure that gamers make clear where the line is. Starforce is not as bad as it's painted, it's not great, either, but it's one of the rare examples of having them come for the crackers and people not remaining silent. I think a lot of gamers realise that if our displeasure is not made clear, when they come for us there'll be no-one left to object.

(Apologies to Martin Niemoller.)

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Alneyan
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If I remember correctly, Trackmania Nations has some ads, and perhaps a couple added-value services, besides serving as promotion for the other Trackmania games. That certainly sounds like business to me, regardless of the cost of the game. So, even if boycotting requires a commercial exchange, I don't see why this particular word couldn't be used here. Or, the other way around: if everybody stops playing the game, it will hurt the company very much. Sounds like boycott.

I don't think the actual choice of words matter so much, though. That might end up being politics at the end of the day... but that's what happened to Captain Boycott back in the days. The Irish Land League led the movement and tried to wholly isolate the chap, not only in business, but also in social life. Simply not having anything to do with the folks behind Trackmania sounds very much like Tim's position (or mine, for that matter).

Banjooie
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The trick here is that noone ever plays indie g--wait what

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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I'm not American too, if that's what you're implying. And don't play it if you don't want to. I'm just saying that boycott is not the same as refusing, it's refusing in order to punish the giver. Go ahead and boycott commercial Starforce protected games, but I still think you can't really harm them by not playing TM Nations. Besides, it not like Starforce is exactly gaining popularity among game publishers now, and as I said, even the newest Trackmania game features a version of Starforce without the drivers, which are what poses the biggest risk.

And saying it will probably harm your computer is extreme hyperbole. "Probably" implies a chance greater than 50%, and Starforce definetly does not damage most computers it's installed on.

I think we've cluttered this thread with too much about Starforce and too little about Trackmania Nations. Maybe we should all just agree to say that a game contains Starforce with a link explaining what that is in the first post, and then ignore this fact for the rest of the thread. ( Ironically, with this post, I'm both continuing to post about Starforce and also proposing a way to let me have the last word in the argument. But if there's anything you can learn from "The Simpsons" it's that if you point out your flaws you don't have to fix them.)

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[Last edited by Krishh at 01-30-2007 03:05 PM]

michthro
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I want to try this game, but now I don't know. This is all very confusing.
-Does Trackmania Nations come with Starforce or not?
-If it does, is it really such a big deal to remove it? Is there more to it than than removing a couple of files and registry keys?
-Where can I find reliable information on exactly how to remove it? (The Boycott Starforce site linked above doesn't exactly inspire confidence with:"There is a Starforce Cleaner Utility that has worked for some.")

Krishh
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-Yes, it does.
-The removal tool worked for me, and I don't see why it wouldn't for you.
-I'd say that the same removal tool is a pretty reliable way to remove, but the Boycott Starforce site also has instructions on removing it manually.

michthro
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Ok, I'll try it then. Thanks.

Syntax
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Krishh wrote:
-Yes, it does.
-The removal tool worked for me, and I don't see why it wouldn't for you.
-I'd say that the same removal tool is a pretty reliable way to remove, but the Boycott Starforce site also has instructions on removing it manually.

Wow this thread has confused me beyond belief.

It does? Are you *sure*?

It's a 100% free game with no ads. I don't see how or why it would be copy protected?

michthro wrote:
Ok, I'll try it then. Thanks.

Personally, I'd really love to know what you think of this game. It's almost classifiable as a puzzle game *optimising* wise. I've historically been a better optimal racing driver over my life-time than a purist puzzle-solver and am intrigued as to whether the skillset is transferable.

I've only played a few times but love this game. Here are my current training records:
Beginner: 26 Gold 4 Silver
Advanced: 4 Gold 1 Silver
Expert: Yet to play

[EDIT]

Make that:
Beginner: 28 Gold and 2 Nadeo course records

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[Last edited by Syntax at 01-30-2007 09:57 PM]

michthro
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Syntax wrote:
Wow this thread has confused me beyond belief.

It does? Are you *sure*?

Well, I installed it, and I can't find the drivers the Boycott Starforce site says to look for. Either something's changed, or Starforce is not included. Maybe it only comes with the CD version? (Assuming there is one.)

Personally, I'd really love to know what you think of this game. It's almost classifiable as a puzzle game *optimising* wise. I've historically been a better optimal racing driver over my life-time than a purist puzzle-solver and am intrigued as to whether the skillset is transferable.

I've only completed the beginner training tracks, but I'm loving it so far. 24 gold and some silver and bronze. From a quick look at some of the more advanced tracks, it looks like there could be some genuine puzzles, as in you may have to do a little thinking just to figure out how to get to the end. Maybe not, but yes, there's a definite puzzle element in optimising. However, the reflex (aka panic) factor still dominates. All the more because of the puzzle element. I figure out what I want to do, and then suddenly on try #10 I accidentally manage it, and:"Oh, God. I did it. Now just keep calm for five seconds. The rest is straightforward. Keep calm..Keep calm...aarrgghhhh"

Syntax
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lol

Yeah, the panic factor is definitely there! And I'm glad you're enjoying it. The shadow mode is brilliant but yeah, panic means I can only play for half hour here and there I'm very chuffed on getting 2 Nadeo records just now though. One was A-0 which is just a case of perseverance and clipping the inside corner just right, but the other was C-8 which is quite a long tech track so very proud of that...

A couple of notes which I've worked out over the last few nights:
*Enter will restart the run (no need to hit Esc and select Restart)
*If you get (say) a Silver and try again, it will display the Gold target time. If you get a Gold, it will display the Nadeo record target

As for this Silverfox protection thing I agree... No idea what half this thread has been about.

Anyways, if there's enough interest I'd happily start a TmNations thread where people can update their medal accomplishments as a slight diversion from those DROD sessions

Finally, I'd recommend the online mode too. The tracks are less puzzle-orientated but the format works very well. I think I somehow managed to get 2 rank points so far. The current record is 100K+ so plenty of scope.

One word of advice... make sure you stop playing this game at least an hour before bed-time or else sleep is hard to achieve lol

[EDIT]

Me ignores my last bit of advice and has just *one* more go... Tomorrow morning should be fun.

[EDIT]

And my first Nadeo on Advanced - D2

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[Last edited by Syntax at 01-30-2007 11:02 PM]

malkav11
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I'd like to try Trackmania. I would. But they'll need to remove Starforce first. (Secret tags conceal semi-lengthy off-topic rant.)

Syntax
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Erm... Trackmania Nations doesn't use Starforce. Please see the couple of posts above.

eytanz
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Syntax - I'm sorry, but there is *tons* of documentation of the fact that Trackmania Nations includes Starforce. Now, it's technically possible it's a false internet rumor, but if it is, it is a very persistent one, having lasted more than a year.

Based on about 5 minutes of Googling, it appears Trackmania Nations will only install the Starforce drivers selectively, if your computer has one of the following already installed:

- An older/partial installation of Starforce (so, if you had Starforce and removed it but didn't catch all of it, it might return).
- CD-drive emulators (e.g. Daemontools).
- Possibly other things.

But there are *many* people who say that it has Starforce, and no apparent denials from anyone actually associated with the game. The only people who say no are people like you who didn't get Starforce from it, but that's still compatible with the selective installation claims.


____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

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[Last edited by eytanz at 01-31-2007 01:24 PM]

michthro
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Umm..The drivers showed up after I rebooted. Sorry for adding to the confusion. The removal utility works, but of course Starforce is reinstalled if I play the game. Guess I'll just put up with it since I already started playing the game and I'm enjoying it. I'll never understand what made Nadeo include this notorious rubbish in a free game.

Syntax
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Ok cool. My bad. Doesn't make sense but yeah. Sorry about the confusion and please DO NOT play this game if you're against Starforce.

There... I've switched sides

BDR
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>_> Well, according to the Wiki article referenced earlier it's likely because the makers didn't want the game to get hacked up for the sole purpose of gaining a place in the online high scores. Though I agree that it's dumb of them to go to that extreme; I would like to think that there would be other ways to get that result without resorting to computer-wrecking DRM mechanisms.