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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Actually, after thinking on it some more I came up with another way of representing the dungeon information. I think I can give you 9 portal sets and all the levels you could ever want.

Happy now? :)

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01-31-2007 at 06:52 AM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Very! :D
01-31-2007 at 01:36 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Kind of off topic, but this little game got me to play Tower of the Sorcerer, and what a game! It totally made me forget about the trivialities of life, like sleaping, eating and drinking :) I hope this game turns out like something similar as a whole, but without all the stupid hidden information.
01-31-2007 at 03:39 PM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
I've been replaying Tower again as well, and now have a few more questions.

1. Will it be possible to create a enemy like the Magic Guard?

2. Can we do weird scripting stuff like Zeno and the number 5?

3. Weapons and shields? Lucky gold? Inaccessible floors?
02-01-2007 at 10:13 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Wow. Five pages already. My little thread is all grown up! :weep :D

Seriously, is there a page limit? If so, I may need to worry about running up against it soon.

Anyway, to answer Ezlo's questions:

Ezlo wrote:
1. Will it be possible to create a enemy like the Magic Guard?

You mean the guys who cut your life in half each time you pass between them? Division is not going in, unless there's a major hue and cry accompanied by several examples of creative puzzle-making that would require it.

As for the "don't step between them" aspect, you could simulate that by putting a harmful permanent trigger between two monsters in a 3-space-wide area. If the adventurer doesn't want to step on the trigger, he has to clear a path around it by fighting one of the monsters.

2. Can we do weird scripting stuff like Zeno and the number 5?

Gameplay-affecting scripting is not going in, as I consider that to be unfair to the player (and this time I don't care how much hue and cry is raised). And the effect you're describing is far too narrow to implement as a specific monster trait.

As with the Magic Sergeant example above, though, you'll probably be able to jury-rig something very close. Especially using the impervious traits I already discussed.

3. Weapons and shields?


Count on it.


3. Lucky gold?


Likely.


3. Inaccessible floors?


You can use portals to achieve that.

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02-01-2007 at 10:42 PM
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BDR
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Ezlo wrote:
2. Can we do weird scripting stuff like Zeno and the number 5?

I don't know exactly where this was mentioned, but I do know that DGM has said that he's not planning on putting scripting in. All I'm going to say on this is that when scripting is done well, what it can do is amazing (see geomatrx's MetDROiD series, obviously), but of course making rooms where you have to hit these bits of wall in a particular order with no clue whatsoever as to what will happen if you do, what the order is or even which bits of wall you need to hit is really unacceptable design, so I can understand leaving it out to curb even the temptation to make something that will force someone to restart because they missed some scripted event (or the far less disastrous but somewhat more annoying and far more pervasive issue of 'knowing' that something bad will happen as soon as you touch the object of your current quest/a helpful item [see quite a few FPS's]).

EDIT: Post collision! I hope your insurance covers this DGM. :D

[Last edited by BDR at 02-01-2007 10:47 PM]
02-01-2007 at 10:44 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
For everybody who's been playing/replaying TOTS, I thought I'd mention that if you play efficiently enough through most of the game, there's some fun to be had at the end. You can break the last part of the game WIDE open...

Did you know that you can get the Sacred Shield before fighting Zeno and finish the game with disgustingly high stats?

Did you know that you can skip fighting Zeno, fighting the Dragon and getting the Sacred Sword and still win?

Did you know that you can reach the princess and still be set up to reach the teleport after level 24 changes, without facing ANY of the last 3 bosses (Zeno, Dragon, Magic Master)? You won't actually get to finish the game this way, as the endgame doesn't trigger (floor 24 doesn't change) until you've both reached the princess AND killed the Master. But you can still get the bragging rights.

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02-01-2007 at 11:32 PM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+2)  
The design of the item system's basic structure is finished, though I ended up revamping how the game handles stats on the way. But as always, some general notes before I dive in:

1) I'm declaring a lock on the alpha demo. The bug Doom reported is very minor (and I don't know how to repeat it), UrAvgAzn never replied concerning his screen resolution problem (so I assume it wasn't that important to him) and all other issues that have been brought to my attention are best left for the recode anyway. Version 8 has sufficient balance, polish and stability that I'd feel no shame in showing it off around the internet.

2) When I'm done with this post, I'm going to take a break. But sometime in the next day or so I'll be bringing up non-gameplay issues. Topics will include how to entice people to pay for this sucker, and for those of you who thought that shameless bribery only happened inside the game I'll be offering free copies of the final version in exchange for help. So stay tuned.

And now, without further gilding the lily...

MATHEMATICS REDUX

One of the expectations I had was that the dungeon master would do his best to set aside some free stats to help the player understand what's going on and keep them updated (like with showing how much life the potions give, etc.). But I've come to the conclusion that the current system for using free stats works against this, and even actively encourages the DM to use them in confusing ways. So I'm changing where and how the math is handled.

Behold:
http://dungeongames2.com/testTriggerLarge2.PNG

Note that the triggers no longer use two-part formulas. Every row in the middle column is occupied by either a single constant (directly entered) or the symbol for a single stat.

Instead, when making the dungeon the DM can specify certain stats as "dependent." He provides a formula for each dependant stat of up to four constants and independent stats (see the text panel for examples), and at the end of each turn the game updates these dependent stats to match their formulas (in case any of the controlling independent stats have changed.)

The dependent stats can't be changed by any other method, which means that life and mana can't be made dependent (they're hardcoded to change in combat). Dependent stats can't be dependent on other dependent stats (this is to prevent order-of-operations from becoming a problem).

Since only a single stat/constant can be used per line in a trigger now, the DM can't have the effects of a trigger change throughout the game (like the healing strength of a potion or the cost of using an altar) unless he devotes a stat for each thing that changes. This helps the player by enforcing both transparency and an upper limit to the number of things that can keep changing on him in a single game.

Of course, the DM gets a couple of things out of this too. He no longer has to waste stats by using them as constants, and he can now use up to four terms in his controlling formulas instead of just two. Also, this new system takes most of the burden of keeping the player informed off of him, allowing him to focus on what he really wants to do: milk the system for everything it's worth so he can load his dungeon with cool stuff.


ITEM SYSTEM

Screenshot (these are text panels only):
http://dungeongames2.com/testItemPanel.bmp

On the top line is the name of the item, followed by how many of them you have. The rest of the panel is divided into an upper and lower half, with each half corresponding to one of the item's abilities (an item can have up to two abilities).

Let's look at the examples one at a time. From the top:

1) An alternate version of the Scroll of Enchant Weapon. It has only one ability (the bottom part is blank). The top line of this area shows the name of the ability on the right ("Use the Scroll") and has a blue background, indicating that the scroll will be destroyed when you use this ability.

One advantage of splitting the trigger system off of the item system is that it should make for a gentler learning curve, as much of what items do is similar to the way triggers work. The remaining lines work almost exactly like the lines of triggers do, except that there's room for 8 stat changes instead of just 4. The results are all shown on the right. Using this scroll will cost 10 mana (as well as the scroll itself) and give back 10 offense. Note that since these are constants, the cost and benefits don't go up every time like that of the scrolls in the alpha demo. It's 10 for 10 each time.

2) Here's a fancier example which takes advantage of the extra space.

The item's first ability ("Sign the Contract") has a white background in the header, indicating that the item will NOT be destroyed when the first ability is used. The first stat affected is new. It's a free stat that's being used as a boolean, and which is used to keep track of whether the adventurer has signed the contract yet. Changing this boolean to true is tested (yellow background), which means that if the stat is already true this operation will fail (the adventurer can't sign twice).

Assuming he signs the adventurer immediately recieves a huge boost in life, but at an insidious price: the multipliers that control how much life he gets from potions, mana he gets from crystals, etc. are each reduced by 1. He can reverse this effect at any time by using the item's second ability ("Destroy the Contract"), but then he has to pay back all the life he got from it.

Thus the contract can allow him to overcome many obstacles, but the longer he relies on it the more he loses in the long run.

3) Of course, items can do much more than just act as triggers. Each ability can include 1 special function, shown to the left of the ability's name.

This alternate version of the Mattock from TOTS has two abilities, each with a different special function. The first ("Destroy One Adjacent") will prompt the player to choose a direction, and if the obstacle next to him in that direction has the target trait shown (and he has the mana to pay for it) it will be destroyed. The second ability will do the same, except that it will destroy everything next to the adventurer with that target trait (and expend the item itself) instead of asking for a direction.

You may recall from a previous screenshot that walls had that particular trait, so the Mattock brings down walls.

4) Item abilities can also be passive, meaning they work automatically under certain conditions instead of you having to select them manually. This remake of the Lucky Coin from TOTS kicks in whenever you loot a corpse.

Instead of giving you the normal amount of money that a loot transaction with a corpse would give, the game takes that value and stores it in the "other" stat (a special variable that doesn't take up one of the adventurer's free stats) and uses it in the formula shown to determine how much money is actually gained. Having this coin means that you will gain 3 times the normal amount of cash - plus 1 extra - from every corpse you loot (assuming it gives money in the first place).

Note the new target trait. This effect only works when looting something that has that trait.

FEEDBACK

I'm going to stop here. There are other special functions I plan to include, but I need to save some surprises for you guys. ;)

Anyway, that's all the basic systems. If you've managed to wade through all these posts you should now have a pretty solid idea of what the game will be like, so tell me what - if anything - you think needs tweaking.

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-02-2007 08:43 AM]
02-02-2007 at 07:31 AM
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Jason
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
DGM wrote:

Seriously, is there a page limit? If so, I may need to worry about running up against it soon.


No page limit. known. Take a look at
this thread! :lol

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02-02-2007 at 07:56 AM
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NiroZ
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DGM wrote:

2) When I'm done with this post, I'm going to take a break. But sometime in the next day or so I'll be bringing up non-gameplay issues. Topics will include how to entice people to pay for this sucker, and for those of you who thought that shameless bribery only happened inside the game I'll be offering free copies of the final version in exchange for help.
Topics? Unless I'm mistaken, the Contest sub-forum is the only place where multiple threads per subject are accepted (although I'm sure there's exceptions.)
Of course, I probably misunderstood you entirely, just thought I would jump on that.

Oh, and seeing as your advocating a bribe-the-helper system, I'll add my thoughts this game :) .

Having tried to finish this game, I personally found the alpha too difficult, and couldn't be bothered sitting down and seriously figuring out how exactly how to do it. Of course, probably in your final product you will make it easy enough to suck people in before you up the difficulty, but I thought I also add it.

Another thing I have been thinking about this games similarity this game has to DROD. Not that this is a bad thing, but one problem(at least for me) was that there isn't any real trainer hold, which teaches you the basic trick and rules in DROD (like not knowing that Decoy's trigger a fuse, or (in your case) that vampires suck stats).

[Last edited by NiroZ at 02-02-2007 08:11 AM]
02-02-2007 at 08:10 AM
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Doom
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Topic can also mean a thing that's being discussed.

I've run into another weird bug once. Unfortunately it's another thing I can't reproduce at the moment. Somehow I ended up on the outside of the level, walking on top of the stat information... I think this had also something to do with using stairs.
02-02-2007 at 08:35 AM
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BDR
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
NiroZ wrote:
Another thing I have been thinking about this games similarity this game has to DROD. Not that this is a bad thing, but one problem(at least for me) was that there isn't any real trainer hold, which teaches you the basic trick and rules in DROD (like not knowing that Decoy's trigger a fuse, or (in your case) that vampires suck stats).

Erm, you did download version 8, right? If so, there should be a tutorial option after selecting New Game. And as for the vampire, if you'd looked at the bottom of the screen, you'd have seen a little bar that shows monster stats (heart = HP, sword = attack, shield = defense) and what the cost of bribing a monster is (if you can bribe them, that is), as well as a HP loss prediction (which IIRC is in the top-right corner).

EDIT: >_> Though perhaps you just mean that DROD has no real tutorial and this game didn't tell you that vamps will suck your blood and steal some attack and defense from you... in which case it did tell you that and you missed it. :P

[Last edited by BDR at 02-02-2007 03:22 PM]
02-02-2007 at 03:19 PM
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DGM
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Jason wrote:
No page limit. known. Take a look at
this thread! :lol

:-O

Holy <bleep>.

Talk about having too much time on your hands. Why aren't you people busy playing DROD? :D

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02-02-2007 at 09:43 PM
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DGM
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NiroZ wrote:

Topics? Unless I'm mistaken, the Contest sub-forum is the only place where multiple threads per subject are accepted (although I'm sure there's exceptions.)
Of course, I probably misunderstood you entirely, just thought I would jump on that.

Doom said it. I meant multiple issues that I'd be bringing up in this thread.


Oh, and seeing as your advocating a bribe-the-helper system,

You can't tell me it's not fitting. :)


Having tried to finish this game, I personally found the alpha too difficult, and couldn't be bothered sitting down and seriously figuring out how exactly how to do it.

Eytanz posted a secreted walkthrough earlier in the thread, if you just want to get to the ending. If you want an easy start and don't mind how you get it, try this:

Click here to view the secret text



Another thing I have been thinking about this games similarity this game has to DROD.

Really? Aside from being grid-based puzzle games (Hell yes, I love the grid!) I don't see much similarity at all.

Well, they both have a swords-and-sorcery theme going, but that's purely a cosmetic issue. And if I can get some alternate sprite sets, The Dungeon will be able to change genres.



Not that this is a bad thing, but one problem(at least for me) was that there isn't any real trainer hold, which teaches you the basic trick and rules in DROD (like not knowing that Decoy's trigger a fuse, or (in your case) that vampires suck stats).

You know, it really surprises me that people missed the bit about bribing the vampire. The bribe cost is displayed right next to the fight cost, and just as prominently. Maybe it's too new a mechanic, and people just aren't used to thinking about it yet?

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-02-2007 10:13 PM]
02-02-2007 at 09:53 PM
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DGM
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Doom wrote:
I've run into another weird bug once. Unfortunately it's another thing I can't reproduce at the moment. Somehow I ended up on the outside of the level, walking on top of the stat information... I think this had also something to do with using stairs.

Oy. You and these weird, unrepeatable bugs. I can tell that having you as a beta playtester must be fun. :P

I think I have a rough idea where bugs like these are coming from, though. I should be able to take care of this sort of thing in the recode.

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02-02-2007 at 09:56 PM
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DGM
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BDR wrote:
Erm, you did download version 8, right? If so, there should be a tutorial option after selecting New Game.

Actually, the tutorial has been there since version 1. I made it before I made the main dungeon.

A question about your avatar, BDR. What is it from?

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-02-2007 09:59 PM]
02-02-2007 at 09:58 PM
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Trust me, you don't want to know.

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02-02-2007 at 10:23 PM
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File: Usability suggestions.PNG (61.9 KB)
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
I think I'll definitely be getting a copy of this game when it comes out! The gameplay's wonderful (although I would like monsters that can halve health...), so right now the only suggestions I can think of are related to the user interface - since you did say you wanted tips on enticing people to buy the game. If you take a look back at one of the images you posted recently, and try to understand the stats window from the point of view of someone who has never played the game, your brain begins to squirt from your earholes. You have thirty-one separate stats, each denoted by a small icon only. This is not a winning situation.

So my proposed solution would be to replace that section of the screen with something like a nested property sheet (or tabbed dialog), each page of which displays a few of your stats (with a text description as well as the icon). For example, for the image shown, you might have (I've probably got most of the names wrong, so sorry in advance):
Main stats tab:
\-> Health 395
    Offense 24
    Mana 35
    Gold 3395
    Defense 0

Keys tab:
\-> Blue 5
    Green 1
    Yellow 0
    Red 0

Loot benefits tab:
\-> Healing potions subtab (visible only when Loot benefits tab is selected):
    \-> Blue 40
        Green 200
        Yellow 1000
        Red 4000
    Combat potions subtab (visible only when Loot benefits tab is selected):
    \-> Offense 1
        Defense 3
    Mana stones subtab (visible only when Loot benefits tab is selected):
    \-> Blue 1
        Green 3
        Yellow 6
        Red 10
    Gold subtab (visible only when Loot benefits tab is selected):
    \-> Copper 10
        Silver 50
        Gold 250
        Gems 1000

Scroll multipliers(?) tab:
\-> Health 3
    Offense 1
    Mana 1
    Gold 1
    Defense 0

Miscellaneous tab:
\-> Altar multiplier 1
    Fire-thingy 1
    Eye-thingy 2
Which is a lot less daunting, since less information is being displayed at once and each stat has sort of miniature description. You could include a "compact" mode similar to the one you're using now as an option for people more familiar with the game who might want all the information in one place.

You might also want to consider grouping related mouse commands together explicitly with lines - all the travel commands, all the movement commands etc. (see attachment), just to help people remember their functions.

One last usability nitpick - it might be a good idea to let DMs pick a default stat layout, but let the players choose in which order they want the stats to appear. For example, I might want offense and defence to appear together as 'related' stats, while another player might not. Oh, and you might want to remove the 'C' icon from the constants - 40 is unambiguously 40, whereas C40 could mean anything.

Gah - keep thinking of new things! One absolutely final thing: maybe allow DMs to name levels? So, for example, level 1 could be displayed as Cave Opening, level 8 The Barracks, level 492 Death's Eternal Maw and so on. Just as an optional bit of flavour!

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02-02-2007 at 10:25 PM
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NiroZ
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DGM wrote:

Really? Aside from being grid-based puzzle games (Hell yes, I love the grid!) I don't see much similarity at all.

Well, they both have a swords-and-sorcery theme going, but that's purely a cosmetic issue. And if I can get some alternate sprite sets, The Dungeon will be able to change genres.
Hmm, well there is the fact that they both are in the puzzle genre, and feature order puzzles quite highly. They both require planning in advance, and they are both set around dungeons.
Maybe it's too new a mechanic, and people just aren't used to thinking about it yet?
Pretty much. perhaps if you provided some examples in the tutorial it might help.

02-02-2007 at 11:03 PM
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There are examples of bribery in the tutorial!
02-02-2007 at 11:27 PM
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Maurog wrote:
Trust me, you don't want to know.

Hey, it's not that bad! And really, that semi-review is wrong about no way to heal oneself (actually, you are waking yourself up more.. a quirk of the game is that the monsters are actually making you tired, not killing you); there are power potions and stealth sneakers that will refill your health/make you fully awake (which the writer would have known if they'd actually tried spending more than 10 minutes playing the game.. and no, stealth sneakers completely refilling your 'health' [or waking you up all the way, depending on your point of view] actually doesn't make a lot of sense, now that I think about it). edit:There also is the ability to strafe and fight at the same time, although as mentioned in the review doing so with a mouse is difficult. Mostly, I was going for the stereotypical crazed/anti-social mad scientist look, and (even though he's very anti-intellectual) Meen fit that pretty well. Plus, when I was at that tender age where game logic isn't questioned (see: Super Mario Brothers [and if you don't get this, explain exactly how eating flowers = breathe fire is logical]), I had a lot of fun with it, and I still want to finish it (even though I've never been able to actually go through all twenty-five levels... trying to find everything in the levels is time-consuming).

[Last edited by BDR at 02-02-2007 11:47 PM]
02-02-2007 at 11:36 PM
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zex20913
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I think the fact that stat points are bribable should be mentioned more prominently. I didn't consider that either for the vampires.

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02-03-2007 at 01:20 AM
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Tim
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zex20913 wrote:
I think the fact that stat points are bribable should be mentioned more prominently. I didn't consider that either for the vampires.
I second that. I've just finished the tutorial and the game, and if I didn't read the walktrough here I don't think I'd ever thought of bribing that guy...

Oh, and I'd say it was quite an interesting game.

[Last edited by Tim at 02-03-2007 02:22 AM]
02-03-2007 at 02:20 AM
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DGM
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Maurog wrote:
Trust me, you don't want to know.


Argh! My brain! MY BRAIN!

ZE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!!!

.
.
.

Although, it is comforting to know that our elementary-schoolers these days can handle themselves in a scuffle with a spiked-club-wielding troll. It makes me feel like our public schools are safer somehow.


P.S. Are you the same Maurog from the Order of the Stick forums?

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[Last edited by DGM at 02-03-2007 03:13 AM]
02-03-2007 at 03:07 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Fafnir wrote:
So my proposed solution would be to replace that section of the screen with something like a nested property sheet (or tabbed dialog),

Hmm. You speak wisdom. I'll find some way of breaking the data up.



Gah - keep thinking of new things! One absolutely final thing: maybe allow DMs to name levels? So, for example, level 1 could be displayed as Cave Opening, level 8 The Barracks, level 492 Death's Eternal Maw and so on. Just as an optional bit of flavour!

That's something I had in mind for a while. VERY likely to go in.

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02-03-2007 at 03:10 AM
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DGM
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zex20913 wrote:
I think the fact that stat points are bribable should be mentioned more prominently. I didn't consider that either for the vampires.

You mean "that ALL stat points," as money is considered a stat. But yes, I suppose mentioning that explicitly (and putting a vampire that you had to bribe) in the tutorial would have been better.

I'll keep it in mind.

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02-03-2007 at 03:12 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
DGM wrote:
zex20913 wrote:
I think the fact that stat points are bribable should be mentioned more prominently. I didn't consider that either for the vampires.

You mean "that ALL stat points," as money is considered a stat. But yes, I suppose mentioning that explicitly (and putting a vampire that you had to bribe) in the tutorial would have been better.

I'll keep it in mind.
The only problem here, I think, is that this is probably the first time a player needs to bribe in the current levelset. I'm guessing that when you have your full dungeon fleshed out that this wont be an issue. I imagine that you'll add some simpler bribe-guys to start before you do anything more complex like stat bribing. Give the player a chance to get used to it a couple times, and it'll become second nature to notice things like this.

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02-03-2007 at 03:37 AM
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coppro
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
One thing:

Was this done with Gamemaker? I'm not looking down or anything, just wondering.
02-03-2007 at 03:39 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
mrimer wrote:
Give the player a chance to get used to it a couple times, and it'll become second nature to notice things like this.

I thought the tutorial covered that, but yes. Based on the feedback I'm getting here I apparently need a slower, more thorough introduction to transactions.

BTW, how am I doing on avoiding "Second System Syndrome?"



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02-03-2007 at 04:03 AM
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DGM
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icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
coppro wrote:
Was this done with Gamemaker? I'm not looking down or anything, just wondering.

<shrug>
I wasn't aware that using Game Maker was something to look down on. But yes, the alpha was made with GM 6.1. I'm thinking of using GM 7.0 - which comes out in two weeks - for the recode.

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02-03-2007 at 04:05 AM
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