Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Electronic Games : The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing)
123
Page 4 of 12
5678>>
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3308
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (+1)  
Beat me to it. Also, step 7 isn't necessary to do this.

Also, I got an error message (secreted) when using the level warp with keyboard, (got a message box with options "abort" and "ignore", chose ignore) but it didn't crash the game or anything. Probably not very significant, but thought I'd mention it.
Click here to view the secret text

01-28-2007 at 09:39 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
I just noticed that step 7 wasn't necessary, and indeed, was not a good idea. I fixed my solution.


____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-28-2007 09:53 PM]
01-28-2007 at 09:44 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
The main problem with this solution (and also the "bribe the vampire" solution) is that it is really easy to win later if you just bribe all the guards on level 8 and then kill the remaining merchants. If you somehow prevent that from happening, you might want to leave the solution in as a fourth solution - it's certainly not easier than the murderer/vampire bribing solutions.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
01-28-2007 at 09:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
I changed my solution - one of the steps was not only unnecessary, but a really bad idea. The solution above works, and it lets you win without later murdering anyone or bribing a vampire.

That's okay. I'm actually not too upset with your way of doing it, because you're still taking a significant mana loss (which is supposed to be one of the three prices you can pay to pass level 6). You're just taking it from a differant source than what I expected.

The only complaint I have about your solution is that you lose considerably less mana than the expected way, so I'm replacing one of those yellow potions on level 5 with a third Zombie Orc. You can still raise the money this way (though you have to take a more round-about path to still end up with enough life for the Yellow Thief), but as long as you're losing more than 10 mana on the way I have no problem with that.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 09:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
DGM wrote:
The only complaint I have about your solution is that you lose considerably less mana than the expected way, so I'm replacing one of those yellow potions on level 5 with a third Zombie Orc. You can still raise the money this way (though you have to take a more round-about path to still end up with enough life for the Yellow Thief), but as long as you're losing more than 10 mana on the way I have no problem with that.

I'm not sure that this will still allow you to avoid murder/vampires - if you need to use another red key to get more life, you're in trouble.

Maybe change to zombie orcs to skeletons, and replace the two yellow potions with one green potion?

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-28-2007 09:58 PM]
01-28-2007 at 09:55 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  

I'm not sure that this will still allow you to avoid murder/vampires

It does. I tested it myself.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 09:59 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
DGM wrote:

I'm not sure that this will still allow you to avoid murder/vampires

It does. I tested it myself.

Just to clarify - you mean that you tested that it's still possible to win the game without murder/vampires, not that it's still possible to get past level 6, right?

Because as far as I can tell, if you use up a red key to get more life to fight the yellow thief, you then are short on red keys and need to murder the guy with the wand of knocking to win (or one of the other two merchants).

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-28-2007 10:05 PM]
01-28-2007 at 10:04 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
Just to clarify - you mean that you tested that it's still possible to win the game without murder/vampires, not that it's still possible to get past level 6, right?

Because as far as I can tell, if you use up a red key to get more life to fight the yellow thief, you then are short on red keys and need to murder the guy with the wand of knocking to win (or one of the other two merchants).

Don't forget, once you pass level 6 there's nothing between you and the guards on level 8. And if you're not a murderer...

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-28-2007 10:10 PM]
01-28-2007 at 10:09 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
Well, sure. That's always the next thing I do. But you're still short one red key overall for what's required to kill the dragon, unless you murder a merchant after you get rid of the guards. At least in any of the permutations I could find.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-28-2007 10:13 PM]
01-28-2007 at 10:12 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
eytanz wrote:
The main problem with this solution (and also the "bribe the vampire" solution) is that it is really easy to win later if you just bribe all the guards on level 8 and then kill the remaining merchants.

Actually, the quick and (morally) dirty path I use when I need to run through the game for test purposes is to:

Click here to view the secret text


...so that sort of thing was always an option. The idea was that in a full-length game those actions would come back to haunt you later, but because the game is so short (and mostly intended as a tech demo anyway) you can get away with it here.

But then, that's the whole point of a challenge, is it not? To make the game harder than it has to be by not taking the easy path.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 10:16 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 7, gameplay change and interface tweaks) (0)  
Actually, I think I'm wrong, and even with your new orc zombie it will still be possible to win without any murders or fighting on level 6. If you release version 8, I'd be happy to test.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
01-28-2007 at 10:19 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Ask and ye shall recieve! Well, actually I thought the policy around here was DON'T ask and ye shall recieve (waves to Erik), but what the heck. Have a new version anyway. :P

Version 8 is up. Changes:

There are now 3 Zombie Orcs on level 5, and they are guarding 1 less yellow potion.

The game-ending victory message for the tutorial was not set to appear in the upper-left corner of the game window. Corrected.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-28-2007 10:40 PM]
01-28-2007 at 10:36 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
zex20913
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
DGM wrote:
Ask and ye shall recieve! Well, actually I thought the policy around here was DON'T ask and ye shall recieve (waves to Erik), but what the heck. Have a new version anyway. :P

Version 8 is up. Changes:

There are now 3 Zombie Orcs on level 5, and they are guarding 1 less yellow potion.

The game-ending victory message for the tutorial was not set to appear in the upper-left corner of the game window. Corrected.

Fixed.

____________________________
Click here to view the secret text

01-28-2007 at 10:37 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Fixed.

Thanks.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 10:41 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
And completed in the new version - no murders, no fighting on level 6, no vampires.

It's possible to do it either with or without the armor scroll - with is actually a bit harder since you start from a mana deficit.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
01-28-2007 at 10:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
eytanz wrote:
And completed in the new version - no murders, no fighting on level 6, no vampires.

It's possible to do it either with or without the armor scroll - with is actually a bit harder since you start from a mana deficit.

You can do it without the orb and wand, as well. One advantage of not bothering with the Scroll of Enchant Armor or a second use of the wand is that you don't have to care about how much mana the undead take from you. Although, again, this is something you'd pay for later in a full-length game.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 10:55 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+2)  
Okay, as long as people are helping me playtest, let's make it a little fun.

Challenge - Conquer the main dungeon without bribing a vampire or becoming a murderer, and while losing as little mana to the undead as possible. The first person to post a (secret) walkthrough for version 8 in which less than 15 mana points are lost through fighting gets two rank points. If you can top the previous walkthrough with one that loses even less mana to the undead, post it before I announce the end of the contest and you'll also get two rank points. No one person may win points twice.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-28-2007 at 11:08 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+2)  
Well, the way I did it above loses exactly 15 points to the undead (if I had lost more, I couldn't have used the enchant armor scroll). Here is the walkthrough (note - towards the end not all steps are strictly necessary, but they let you end with more life):

Click here to view the secret text



____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-29-2007 12:04 AM]
01-28-2007 at 11:44 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
I'm not sure exactly what you mean... I didn't kill any inocents, nor thifs, and I didn't bribe any vampires, but in one fight I lost 18 mana. In the end I had mana +-0, and more than 5000 lives :)
01-28-2007 at 11:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Ok, I'm pretty certain it's impossible to do better than losing 15 mana without murdering or visiting a vampire. Reasoning:

Click here to view the secret text


____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

[Last edited by eytanz at 01-29-2007 12:32 AM]
01-29-2007 at 12:27 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5141
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
This is an interesting alternate-walkthoughs-discussion. I'll add some general thoughts of my own:

When I played through, I solved it by bribing a vampire (I love this! -- "I'll let you past if I can suck your blood! Bleh, bleh!"), then bribing all the guards, then killing all the merchants. I had a moment's hesitation about murdering the innocents -- even if only from a macro-strategic perspective -- but then I realized the current dungeon ends at level 10, so it doesn't really matter since there are no other guards in the way, does it? I think it's fine to tighten up some unintended solutions, but in general, I think tricky/clever ways past levels should be applauded, not blocked. It makes the game richer. There's no reason to restrict alternate, similarly challenging paths -- it just turns into a game of "guess what the designer was thinking". As long as leaving something in doesn't make everything trivial thereafter. Just like in DROD, I guess.

I also noticed in L3 (iirc) that there's no benefit to killing the monsters not along the path. In TotS, I like the strategy of deciding when to get something from monsters. Eytan mentioned the tradeoffs, and they have an interesting feel to them. However...I'm not sure there's room for further complexifying the rules of interaction in this game past what we've already got. I'll provide anecdotal evidence by way of anecdote:

A few years ago, when we were working on DROD:AE, Erik came down to visit me for a few days. We had fun talking source code and discussing future DROD plans. During this time, a school friend of mine was interested in developing a more complex TotS game. Much more complex. He thought up all kinds of RPG stats, modifiers, elemental bonuses, etc. to include. At the time, thinking of all the possibilities was fun for us, but after a while I realized making a strategy game with such complex rules would probably end up too brittle somehow. Too complex to design, maybe, or eventually too opaque to the player. Maybe a few hardcore fans would enjoy it, but at the cost of losing many other people who might enjoy a more basic gameplay. Ultimately, I'm glad that project never got off the ground. With a simple, consistent, well thought-out augmentation of TotS gameplay, however, there could be lots of fun and innovation (i.e. for players, not just game designers). The Dungeon right now has that.

So, my two cents is that the mana + bribing + innocents additions are really cool, and they add another few dimensions to complexify the TotS gameplay. The scrolls that let you choose when to add power-up multipiers (instead of it happening automatically after each 10-level set in TotS) is a cool innovation. Removing gold gained by killing monsters subtracts a dimension, but that leaves the game as still substantially more complex than TotS overall. My preliminary analysis is that maybe more monster interactions could or should be added, but this should be done with extreme care to keep the game accessible to entry-level players, not just TotS veterans.

I guess I'm mostly worried about Second System Syndrome here, but you can take it with a grain of salt. (This applies to sequels like JtRH and TCB too -- we're trying to add in more innovative and exciting game features on top of what we've already got while keeping it simple so that a newbie doesn't get lost in all the possible feature interactions going on. What I'd hate most is to reach a point in DROD where people look at game elements on the screen, but they can't remember what they do because there are too many object types to remember. That makes me a bad game designer.) Anyway, that's my experience with this. DGM, if you'd like more ways to interact with things than you have now, maybe you could put them in a sequel, replacing some of the behaviors you have now with those. (Kind of like they do in the Final Fantasy series, with different job/powerup systems and fight mechanics each game.)

Don't change the combat equations! They're elegantly beautiful the way they are now. (But, as mentioned, a quick-fight option setting that allows the player to skip the blow-by-blow sequence for each fight might not be amiss.)

Sorry for talking your ears off :lol

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-29-2007 01:52 AM]
01-29-2007 at 12:28 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
mrimer wrote:
When I played through, I solved it by bribing a vampire (I love this! -- "I'll let you past if I can suck your blood! Bleh, bleh!"),

Oh, yeah. Cool and disturbing all at the same time. :cool


I had a moment's hesitation about murdering the innocents -- even if only from a macro-strategic perspective -- but then I realized the current dungeon ends at level 10, so it doesn't really matter since there are no other guards in the way, does it?

Yeah, like I said earlier that's something you'd pay for later in a full-length game. Kind of like using the first shrine in TOTS.


Much more complex. He thought up all kinds of RPG stats, modifiers, elemental bonuses, etc. to include. At the time, thinking of all the possibilities was fun for us, but after a while I realized making a strategy game with such complex rules would probably end up too brittle somehow.

One of the basic design principles I'm using is that everything the player really needs to know should be available at a glance. Obviously this can't be done 100% of the time - like when there's too many different monster types on a level for the bottom panel to handle all at once - but as much as possible I wanted to minimize scrolling and panel-changing. This means that the 800*600 screen-size itself puts an upper limit on the amount of complexity I can have, and has influenced a few design choices along the way.


Removing gold gained by killing monsters subtracts a dimension, but that leaves the game as still substantially more complex than TotS overall. My preliminary analysis is that maybe more monster interactions could or should be added, but this should be done with extreme care to keep the game accessible to entry-level players, not just TotS veterans.

I'm still working over the item system, but the other systems are pretty much all fleshed out. I'll post what I've come up with so far shortly.


I guess I'm mostly worried about Second System Syndrome here, but you can take it with a grain of salt. (This applies to sequels like JtRH and TCB too -- we're trying to add in more innovative and exciting game features on top of what we've already got while keeping it simple so that a newbie doesn't get lost in all the possible feature interactions going on. What I'd hate most is to reach a point in DROD where people look at game elements on the screen, but they can't remember what they do because there are too many object types to remember. That makes me a bad game designer.)

You guys should probably continue the approach you're taking with TCB, and just treat the games like episodes that should be played in order. That's really the only way you're going to be able to continue adding more game elements without alienating new players, short of re-working the game from the ground up and breaking all the existing levels (which is probably a bad idea).


Sorry for talking your ears off :lol


Not at all. In fact, the "second system" comment was very useful and motivated me to go back and strip a layer of complexity back out of the new bribe system. And I don't think I sacraficed much in the way of versatility in doing so.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-29-2007 at 02:37 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
eytanz wrote:
Ok, I'm pretty certain it's impossible to do better than losing 15 mana without murdering or visiting a vampire. Reasoning:

That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed anything. Thanks. :)

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-29-2007 02:45 AM]
01-29-2007 at 02:44 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+3)  
Okay, here's a look at what I've got planned - gameplay-wise, at least - so far. First, a mock screenshot:
http://dungeongames2.com/testScreen2.PNG

Second - before I really get started - I've decided that if DROD can call its hold-makers "architects" and its players "smitemasters," then I can have cool titles for my users too. So from now on I'm going to refer to my users as "dungeon masters" and "adventurers" (dungeon-makers and players, respectively), unless someone can think of anything better. :)

Okay, let's get to it. First, some general notes:

1) In the name of conserving screen space, all numbers are now now capped at 5 digits (in both directions). So all numbers must range between -99999 and +99999. Negative numbers are shown in red, rather than using a minus sign (note that the adventurer is 35 mana points in the hole).

2) Dungeons will be limited to 100 levels. You are allowed only 1 stairs up and 1 stairs down per floor. You will also get 4 pairs of portals that let you jump between any two levels (each portal will transport you to the other of the pair).

These limits are imposed for the sake of the travel system - which will use the text panel to show the explored/visible levels and portal links - so they're not likely to be increased any further. That should still be plenty of real-estate, though... still twice as much as TOTS even before you count the larger level sizes.

3) Stats. There will be a total of 43 of them to work with, 14 of which are reserved stats (meaning the system uses them in specific ways). The other 29 will be free stats, which means that they will do only what you want them to and are yours to use (or not use) as you see fit.

These 43 stats are essentially the global variables that the dungeon master gets to work with. If it affects gameplay in any way, you must use one of these stats and it will be visible to the player. Global variables for non-gameplay-affecting matters (such as dialogue, graphics, sound, etc.) will be more numerous and won't be shown to the player.

Six of the reserved stats are integers. They are: life, mana, offense, defense, drain reduction (prevents mana drain from monsters) and visions (controls how far ahead the player can see through unexplored levels).

The other eight reserved stats are booleans, and the symbol for one will be visible in the trait panel (the thin, vertical panel between the level map and the item panel) if true. Four of these stats correspond to the new "faction" traits (already discussed earlier). If a monster has one or more faction traits, you can only deal with it if the same trait symbols appear in your trait panel. The other four symbols correspond to the new "impervious" traits, which do the same thing for combat that the faction traits do for cutting deals (more on this shortly).

The remaining 29 stats have no hardcoded behaviour. There is no need for special stats to track things like keys or the benefits of consumables, as the new obstacle and item systems will be flexible enough to handle these things without hardcoding. The dungeon master can use the free stats for those things if he wishes, or can use them for entirely new concepts.

4) Don't pay too much attention to the item and command panels yet, as I plan to work on those a bit more.

5) By popular request, the color scheme has been reversed. The money items are now copper-silver-gold-gems.


OBSTACLE SYSTEM

Okay, now to the meat of this post. What I was previously calling "monsters" will now be known as "obstacles," because with a few simple tweaks the system for creating them will become versatile enough to make far more than just creatures.

..FIGHT SYSTEM

Recall that a monster with a blank entry for its bribe cost can't be bribed. Well, it turns out that the same mechanic can easily be applied to the fight cost. If an obstacle has no fight cost, you can't fight it and can only deal with it through bribes or by exploiting traits.

Also, there will be four "impervious" traits, which work similairly to the previously proposed "faction" traits. If a monster has any impervious traits, you must have the same traits displayed in your trait panel or you can't attack it. This allows you to create monsters that can only be fought when certain conditions are met (e.g. you need a magical Ice Sword to kill a Fire Elemental).


..TRANSACTION SYSTEM

The bribe system is being renamed the transaction system, because there are now three types of transactions you can make with obstacles:

------------------------------------------------------------

1) Bribe transactions

The classic favorite. If you have what the obstacle wants, you can give it to him to make him get out of your way.

2) Display transactions

Like the bribe, except you don't actually lose whatever it is that the obstacle wants. You just have to have it.

Display transactions are indicated by a white background.

3) Loot transactions

If a monster has a loot transaction, it will not disappear when you kill it. Instead its corpse will remain until you walk over and collect it, at which point its loot will be added to your inventory. Eytanz and mrimer, this one's for you. :P

Loot transactions are indicated by a blue background.

---------------------------------------------------------

Also, note that monsters can now ask for items as well as stats. Any combination of up to two items/stats can be used.

If a monster is interested in two items/stats, the two can be either be used in a single transaction (you must have both or the transaction fails) or in two alternate transactions. In alternate transactions, the game tries to apply them in order (top-to-bottom for two stats, left-to-right if items are involved).

For examples of how this works, look at the obstacles shown at the bottom of the screenshot. Starting at the left:

1) An impenetrable wall. It has no fight cost, so you can't attack it. It has no bribe cost, so you can't bribe it. It has no traits, so you can't exploit them. It isn't going anywhere, ever, so get used to it.

Note that the editor will automatically place one of these in each edge and corner tile of each map, and you won't be allowed to delete or alter them in any gameplay-related way (changing the name or sprite is fine, though). These exterior walls demarcate the playing area.

2) Similair to the first wall, except that it has a trait. This is a "target" trait, and there will be at least four of them (and more likely six or eight). These do nothing on their own, but are there to tell magic items what they should and should not affect. For instance, if I remade the mattock or super-mattock items from TOTS, they would only destroy obstacles with this particular target trait.

3) A basic blue door. You can't fight it, but you can bribe it with one point from your blue key stat. Note that since you can't fight a door, the game won't bother asking you what you want to do. It will just take the key automatically when you bump into the door.

Note also that it has a different target trait, which would be needed to remake the Wand of Knock in the new system.

At this point you're probably thinking, "It's cool that the new system is flexible enough to build even the walls and doors out of, but I really don't want all that stuff cluttering the bottom panel all the time." Worry not, there will be a second, hidden panel that you can move such obstacles to. You can look them up when and if you need to, but they won't be shown otherwise. Also, the dungeon master can flag certain obstacles as "common" and you'll have the option to start with all commons already hidden, so you won't have to move them all manually at the start of every game. The same will apply to items.

4) Here you see an example of a display transaction. This blue merchant only wants to see your papers before he lets you pass, not take them from you.

5) The court jester here also wants to see your papers, but if you don't have them you can choose to grease his palm (or puncture his pancreas) instead. Showing him your papers and paying him off are alternate transactions, which is shown by the thick black line that seperates the two things he wants.

6) Gandalf here is even greedier. There's no line between the paper and the money, so these aren't alternate transactions. He insists on both seeing the paper AND taking your money.

7) The green door first checks to see if you can display 50 offense, and if that fails will take a green key. This is essentially a door that can be broken down, if you're strong enough.

8) Finally, here's an example of a loot transaction. This Zombie Orc is loaded, and if you beat it in battle and then walk over the corpse the money is yours. Of course, since this thing was a rotting corpse even before you punched its clock, handling the body isn't exactly hygienic. You'll lose 100 life due to the unhealthy side effects. Is it worth it?

FEEDBACK

Okay, what do you guys think? Is this the right balance of simplicity vs. versatility?

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-29-2007 07:04 AM]
01-29-2007 at 04:13 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Wow, I think this is really cool.

The balance seems great - there's a small, easily learnable set of rules, and a lot that can be done with it. I can't wait to get to play with it!

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
01-29-2007 at 04:45 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1309
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (0)  
Wow. I haven't been following this thread at all and that post made me want to try it out. If you can design a game like that, everyone on this forum will want to play.

Let's keep it a secret, okay? :shifty
01-29-2007 at 05:04 AM
View Profile Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Sure, why not. It'll be just between you and me.

Well, unless I go and do something stupid like post my design notes in a public forum. But hey, what are the odds of that? :look

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/
01-29-2007 at 10:25 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+2)  
Okay, more of me posting my design notes in a public forum.

1) The travel system should be able to accomodate 5 portal pairs instead of just 4. All other limits are as stated.

2) The only number-crunching operations allowed to the dungeon master will be addition, subtraction and multiplication. Division is out. The game will have all the mathematical sophistication it needs without throwing in fractions, rounding and division-by-zero.

3) Changing a stat can only be done through addition, though being able to add negative numbers effectively gives you subtraction as well. You can use multiplication and subtraction when computing what number to change a stat by, but you will not be allowed to multiply the stat itself or set it to an arbitrary value. Also, every effect that modifies a stat in a given turn will be computed before any of them are actually applied, so if you have 100 life and two effects that try to triple your current life total you'll end up with 500 rather than 900 (each effect will add 200 to the original 100).

Why is this so, you ask? Well, DROD has problems with order-of-movement, and without these rules The Dungeon would have similar problems with order-of-operations. Imagine that you had 100 life, and one effect that wanted to add 100 more and another that wanted to multiply your life by 10. Whether you ended up with 1100 or 2000 would depend entirely on which order the game processed the effects in, and that would be a very complicated thing for the dungeon masters and adventurers to try and control. The above rules ensure that it doesn't matter what order such effects are processed in.


TRIGGER SYSTEM

I was trying to have the item system handle both retained items (like the Wand of Knock) and consumable-type items. This turned out to be a bad idea, so consumables - now called "triggers" - are being split off into a new system. As with the upgrade from monsters to obstacles, a few tweaks will give these suckers a lot of potential.

First, some pretty pictures. Triggers will be shown alongside obstacles and will have both large and small entries, as you can see of the 5 triggers shown both ways in these two mock screenshots:
http://dungeongames2.com/testTriggerSmall.PNG
http://dungeongames2.com/testTriggerLarge.PNG

A trigger takes effect when the adventurer steps on it. There are two kinds: one-shot and permanent. A one-shot vanishes after taking effect once, and is indicated by a blue background in the header. A permanent trigger sticks around for any number of re-uses, and is indicated by a white background in the header.

Each trigger has two local constants, numbers which only the trigger itself can use and which can't be changed. These are shown right below the trigger's name in the large entries.

A trigger can make up to 4 changes to the adventurer's stats (triggers can't affect items). Any combination of stats can be used (including multiple changes to the same stat if needed). Each row below the header corresponds to one of the changes.

In the left-most column (in the large entry) is the stat being changed.

In the middle column is a simple formula determining what the change will be. You may use a single value (either a stat or one of the local constants), in which case that value is added directly to the stat. Or you may take a second value and add, subtract or multiply it to the first, in which case the result is what will be added to the stat.

The right column (the only column shown in the small entry) shows what numbers will be added to what stats if you use the trigger this turn.

There's one more aspect to triggers: sometimes you want a trigger to be able to reduce a stat below 0 and other times you don't. You can flag each line to be tested. If a line is flagged (shown by a yellow background) the game will first test the stat to see if it would still be at 0 or higher after having the numbers in the middle column applied to it. If any of these tests fail, the trigger will do nothing (and will not vanish if it's a one-shot).

For examples, look at the triggers shown in the screenshots. Starting from the left:

1) A simple red potion. Since I'm already using one of the free stats to show the adventurer what a red potion adds to his life, I just go ahead and add the value of that stat to life. Since it has a blue background in the header, the potion will disappear forever after use.

2) A shop that sells as many red potions as the adventurer wants, as long as he can afford it. The first local constant is used to record the amount of money the adventurer must pay per potion. Since the line which subtracts the money is tested (yellow background), this trigger will only work if you have 3000 or more in cash.

3) The trigger system can also make environmental hazards. Here's a simple one: each time you step on this fire, you lose 50 life. Note that the life-loss is NOT tested, so this can reduce your life below 0.

4 & 5) Want to recreate the altars from TOTS? You know, the ones that give you your choice of an offense, defense or life boost when used but cost more and more money each time?

Two new free stats are involved, both shown on the fifth line of the stat panel. The first (black cross on purple background) is the "alter use" stat, which shows the number of times you've used an alter plus one. This controls the cost. The second (white cross on black background) is used as a constant (1).

The first line of each alter determines the benefit the adventurer will recieve from using it. The number for this is stored in the first local constant.

The second line takes the base price (50, stored in the second local constant) and multiplies it by the "alter use" stat to figure out how much the adventurer must pay.

If the adventurer meets the price, the third line also raises the "alter use" stat by 1, so that it costs more next time.

The alter system took two free stats to implement, but now I can add as many new kinds of such alters as I want without needing more stats. Also, one of the free stats is being used as the constant 1, which can probably be re-used elsewhere.


FEEDBACK

Gameplay-wise, all that's left now to plan out is the item system. Granted, that's what I said before, but it should be easier now that much of what I needed it to do has been delegated to the trigger system.

I'm going to try and have the item system finished and posted before this weekend, then I'll give you all through the end of next weekend before I declare feature lock on basic gameplay elements and start coding. That should be enough time to find any flaws and point out anything that needs changing.

In the meantime, feel free to rip the trigger and obstacle systems apart. Seriously, be brutal, because any flaws that slip past now may end up being with the game forever.

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-31-2007 05:27 AM]
01-31-2007 at 02:22 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Citrus
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1228
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Just a few simple questions:

1. If you have the "Go up 100 floors" and "Go down 100 floors" option on the travel function, why limit it to 100 floors? Maybe 500, or 1000 would be better, although I doubt that any of them will be going that deep.

2. Is it going to be limited to starting from the top and working your way to the bottom? Or can you make it start from the bottom as well. And why not make it possible to start from the middle and having to work in both directions?

3. This is going to be an editor, right? :blush

____________________________
Call me Citrus.
01-31-2007 at 03:31 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
DGM
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 202
Registered: 06-16-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Dungeon (version 8, gameplay change) (+1)  
Ezlo wrote:
Just a few simple questions:

1. If you have the "Go up 100 floors" and "Go down 100 floors" option on the travel function, why limit it to 100 floors?

The travel function was implemented very early, and in light of some of the new things I'll be adding (specifically, visions and portals) the final version will not look the same.

Basically, there will be 1 button for the travel function and when you press it, the text panel will show the entire dungeon layout (and a cursor for moving around). Each level will be represented by a tag of up to 3 letters/numbers (the dungeon level by default, though the dungeon master can change this). The text panel can comfortably fit 10 columns of such tags each row, so using 10 of the panel's 11 rows for a 10*10 layout gives 100 levels. The tags will be colored differently depending on various factors (can you travel to them, can you see them through visions, etc.) The bottom row will show the portal links (5 pairs of room tags).

In keeping with the "everything the player needs to know should be available at a glance" principle, I don't want to add more levels because it wouldn't fit into one page of the panel. And I think 100 levels is quite a bit, really. Far, far more than you could plan all your moves for in advance.

And in anticipation of the next question along these lines, having more than two normal exits per level means I'll have to show the exits on the panel as well, and then it starts getting mighty crowded in there...


2. Is it going to be limited to starting from the top and working your way to the bottom? Or can you make it start from the bottom as well. And why not make it possible to start from the middle and having to work in both directions?

You read my mind. :)

Being able to start in any empty tile in any level was something I've had planned for a while.


3. This is going to be an editor, right? :blush

No, this entire thread was just my way of yanking everybody's chain. And that alpha demo you played was all just a dream. April Fools!

.
.
.

Yes, there will be an editor. But watch this post get modded down right through the floor for that joke, anyway. :)

____________________________
My gaming blog is at http://dungeon-games.com/blog/

[Last edited by DGM at 01-31-2007 04:40 AM]
01-31-2007 at 04:37 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
123
Page 4 of 12
5678>>
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Electronic Games : The Dungeon (Partial editor for testing)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.