noman
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 104
Registered: 07-21-2003
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I have an idea about a monster, harder to kill than goblins. I have little time to explain. The basic idea is to let it move before beethro moves(if you press the button, the monster moves, then Beethro moves, then all other monsters move). The monster has a very specific movement behavoir(like the goblins have).

The fact that they can't be killed if there is a field they can move to if they are attacked by beethro's sword, makes the in fact hard to kill, but not impossible. Beethro must get them into a position, where the monster can not escape when beethro strikes it.(e.g. a one or two width corridor)

one width explains itself
two width: If you have the monster into a two width corridor this happens:

WWWWWW

   BSW

    MW

WWWWWW



if beethro goes south(W=wall, S=sword,B=beethro,M=monster)



WWWWWW

     W

   BSW

WWWWWW



Because the monster can't walk through beethros sword.



I will explain the movement behavoir later(i've no tome)



->noman



[Edited by noman on 08-24-2003 at 02:08 PM]



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zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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When you do explain later, please put code tags around it so we can see your example a bit better.

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noman
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 104
Registered: 07-21-2003
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Okay my explaination:

I give an example:

At dirst you stand in front of the monster like this:

      BSM





If you now move forward the monster leaps back.



       BSM



This way you can push it as long as you like. but if you step back this would happen:



      BS M



The monster stays at it's position because its shocked for a moment. Now lets wait:



      BS M



The monster generally is frightend by your sword and does not come nearas long as you point at it, so lets move south:



        M

      BS



The monster dosn't feel the threat anymore and comes closer, lets wait:



       M

      BS



The monster comes closer(don't wait now),lets move north instead:



        M

      BS



As you can see the monster leaps back(45deg away from beethros movement), if we wait now it would not move, so lets step foward(it will also not move)



        M

       BS



Now we swing our sword.



        M

        S

       B



The monster leaps backwards 45deg to beethros sword. We want to change direction, thatswhy we swing again:



        M

       S

       B



The monster will not move. now we step east:



        M

        S

        B



Thats the basic movement of the lurker. But lets get on: We move north:



WWWWWWWWWWWWWW

        M    W

        S    W

        B    W



The monster stands with the back on the wall. lets move north again:



WWWWWWWWWWWWW

        SM  W

        B   W



The monster always tries to escape clockwise first. If this is impossible it tries the other way.(Well now we could wait without getting attacked, he's shocked, remember?) Now we move twice east. The monster moves east too, because north east is Wall: 



WWWWWWWWWWWWW

          SMW

          B W



Got it, it can't escape anymore, now lets smack it down, by swinging our sword.





I hope you have many Questions!!



->noman



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Sokko
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In many of the situations you mentioned there (see last "frame" of your last example and first "frame" of your first post), the Lurker would just move diagonally and kill Beethro. Even if it's incapable of moving diagonally, it would just move in some orthagonal direction and avoid it before the sword moved. There is no way to destroy it unless you trap it with walls/critters on 3 sides. (much like a serpent dead-end)

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noman
Level: Master Delver
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Yeah, but the ponit is, that if it's attacked by the sword, it cannot attack you, it must leap back, or die. It can't overrun beethro if it's attacked. And after an attack it has to relax a turn if it's not attacked by beethro again. Thatswhy it doesn't attack beethro in my examples.

In the last situation, the lurker is between beethro with his sword and a wall.if beethro steps east, it must die. It cannot run through beethros sword.

->noman

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Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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This sounds really confusing and unintuitive...I think I need some more convincing that it belongs in the DROD gameplay style.

Game on,

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zex20913
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I think I completely agree with Onei, but I see where you're coming from too, noman. The movement logic I've found (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the player hits a button for Beethro to move, and then the monster will move with respect to where it knows Beethro will be.

I do think that this monster would be too difficult. Perhaps a monster with simple roach logic, but moving before Beethro, and despite what Beethro does, would be better.

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Mister
Level: Master Delver
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I disagree. IMO, all monsters that move before Beethro should be ruled out. After all, it has no effect except being harder to predict.

But a new option could be added, for all insane people out there, that makes all monsters move before Beethro. With small tweaks to this basic idea, all rooms remain solvable with the same solution; only the actual playing is a lot harder, the rooms are not.

noman
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 104
Registered: 07-21-2003
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Yeah, Zex you're right, that is the moving logic.

Mister: There is a problem: the roaches(roach logic) would attack him and kill him. And they would be impossible to kill, because you can't control them. The lurker logic compensates that problems. You can push the lurker into walls or small passages. Roaches can't be controlled enough to get them into such positions, where they could be killed, if they would be so intelligent.

Onei: That is the fun in the thing. It doesn't only contain the drod system(beethro->monster). That is the new idea(monster->beethro) Well groups would be impossible to kill. But a single lurker in combination with a few other monsters could be deadly enough. I thought about the strengh when they appear in groups. They could be weakend, if they would not like each other. They would not come closer to each other than 4units between them, if possible of course. In distance to beethro they would move like roaches. That way they easily could be trapped with doors or arrows. That is the puzzle character in this monster. If there are more monsters of this type in a room, you have to trick all but one into obstacles to prevent getting killed by them. The one remaining monster shouldn't be that hard to kill, if the design of the room is right. I hope i could convince you now. If not pöease give me another try!!

->noman

[Edited by noman on 08-26-2003 at 11:32 AM]

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Oneiromancer
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Noman, that's just my opinion. I'm content to wait and see what Erik and the CDWNSGADROD (Committee to Decide What New Stuff Gets Added to DROD) decide on this and any other feature requests. The only thing I will say now is that Erik has made many arguments on what he feels is appropriate to the DROD style, which includes being able to predict what will happen the next turn. If there is only one creature that moves before Beethro, when all the others move after...that's just going to be really hard to predict.

Game on,

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zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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Before you guys go any farther, check this post out. It addresses the same issue, and has some "Erik Thoughts" there. I think though, with the new functions in the other post about this, it *could* work. http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=126

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