coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
IP: Logged

eytanz wrote:

I don't think it's unreasonable for people who use their computers only as a platform to perform some basic tasks (word processing, spreadsheets, games) to be able to do so with the simplest interface possible. That doesn't make you stupid, any more than not knowing how to tune one's car engine makes one a stupid driver.

It's also not unreasonable to design your OS for a different demographic, which is the case with most Linux builds as far as I can tell (I don't have direct experience with them, mind you).

It does seem pretty unreasonable to me to design an interface that's supposed to make it easy for casual users to use it, and then require that they don't use it, which seems to be Matt's point. It's nice to have access to the advanced options is you want them, but, unless you're only targetting advanced users, you should keep them out of the way of normal use.

*concurs* The command line is powerful - oftentimes I find it the best way to do things (especially when dealing with anything from GNU, because it's all a bunch of Linux users so the programs pretty much require command-line execution to get any feedback). When I program, I always use the command line as the interface, it's just a bajillion times easier than making a GUI for something. Of course, I add a pause at the end to allow non-command-line execution, but still, I find that a command-based interface is the easiest. When I use Linux, it's not a right-click-change-privileges, I just open a terminal and chmod it. The problem is that the majority of the world is not ready to cope with having to use the command line. Most people are happy with the point-and-click interface that already is commonly used. It's easier to operate, although often slower. What really needs to be done in this Ubuntu example is add a command to the program - "Execute with feedback" or somesuch that pulls up a terminal to catch feedback information. That way, the people who swear by the command line and the people who are afraid of it can get along much better.

---

[Last edited by coppro at 11-06-2006 05:11 PM]

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged

jamie wrote:
As an aside, I do nearly everthing in an xterm - On a typical day, I'll probably have 20 or so xterms open - logged into 4 or 5 different machines, with about 9 visible on screen at the same time.

Go screen. I could never get used to having more than two windows visible at the same time, though. I'm enough of a schizophrenical butterfly with only one window to focus on at any given time, so I don't need any further distraction.

The only 'gui' thing i run regularly is firefox.

So, ya don't like Drod? Sure is a gui ! I'll admit I have a strong dislike for non-X11 based Emacs, though. I don't know, it just looks so much prettier in X11, especially in Sawfish. Of course, finding Emacs to be actually logical and convenient to use probably disqualifies me to make any comment about "learning curve" and the like.

Portage is the Gentoo thingy, I think. Debian's apt is very much binary-focused, so that's definitely not ports. I heard apt is pretty convenient when updating a bunch of packages at the same time, but I don't have any experience with "mass update" on FreeBSD... and don't think the need to do that sort of thing, anyway (my updates are selective).

This post was oddly devoid of mean-spirited snarky snide remarks aimed at Jamie.

AlefBet
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 979
Registered: 07-16-2003
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
I find the attitude of blaming the users because they're scared of screwing up their computer by using an esoteric and almost obsolete user inteface not especially admirable.

Esoteric, I'll give you. Steep learning curve, sure. Requires more knowledge than most users want or should want, yes. But obsolete! Them's fighting words. There are many things a command line can do that will glaze a GUI's eyes completely over. These are generally power user, make your OS do a jig, fancy things that most non-power-users users won't want to do. (Actually, many of them I expect they would want to do, but it's not worth learning a command line for the once-a-month-at-most frequency they'd use it.) But the command line is not going away any time soon, even though you can do most or all of it with a GUI as well.

Linux ain't ever going to be a mainstream choice for consumers if the developers have that sort of attitude.

There's a part-to-all assumption that's going on here. Granted, it's probably a big part, because most Linux users pre-Ubuntu are fairly command-line-savvy. But the OSS crowd is a very heterogeneous mix, made up of its members, and as more non-tech-savvy people start picking up the newer command-line-optional distros, there will be more GUI-centric help available in the forums.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
IP: Logged

I like to think of the Windows/Linux debate (specifically, GUI/command-line) as Zork against Monkey Island (though at least you get music at the end of Monkey Island ... both excellent in their own way, the former definitely more "hard-core", the second simply easier to use.

Even the efficiency issue is addressed with this analogy as I can traverse 10 rooms a second in Zork if I wish, whereas I can also enjoy the lovely view of Monkey Island whilst rushing at the leisurely pace of 1 room a minute (max ).

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I like to think of this issue as analogous to whether a mouse or the keyboard is the better input device for 1) playing DROD, and 2) making rooms in the DROD level editor.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

trick
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2580
Registered: 04-12-2003
IP: Logged

Hm, I don't know. I was in Windows yesterday, and had to use the command line. (It didn't help much, though.)

Also, my mom's more comfortable with Ubuntu than Windows. The only problem she's had was when my sister decided to upgrade the kernel and the system didn't install the nvidia module for the new kernel automatically, with the result that X refused to start

Anyway .. While the terminal is a great tool, I don't think that's any excuse for having crappy graphical user interfaces, so I completely agree that Linux needs better GUIs. Not just more functional ones, but also more consistent and simply better designed. Ergonomics.

~ Gerry

AlefBet
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 979
Registered: 07-16-2003
IP: Logged

trick wrote:
Anyway .. While the terminal is a great tool, I don't think that's any excuse for having crappy graphical user interfaces, so I completely agree that Linux needs better GUIs. Not just more functional ones, but also more consistent and simply better designed. Ergonomics.

I would have completely agreed with you about two years ago. Now I'll agree that better (more consistent, more functional) GUIs would be a good thing to have, but as much in Windows as in Linux. The Linux GUIs aren't perfect, but they're pretty solid these days, and taken with the degradation of the Windows GUIs that Microsoft has done (for example, how toolbars and buttons and menus work depends on which version of Office you have), I'd say they're pretty close to parity.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

trick
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2580
Registered: 04-12-2003
IP: Logged

AlefBet wrote:
I would have completely agreed with you about two years ago. Now I'll agree that better (more consistent, more functional) GUIs would be a good thing to have, but as much in Windows as in Linux. The Linux GUIs aren't perfect, but they're pretty solid these days, and taken with the degradation of the Windows GUIs that Microsoft has done (for example, how toolbars and buttons and menus work depends on which version of Office you have), I'd say they're pretty close to parity.

I admit I haven't used Windows much for other things than games the past two years, and Linux GUIs are certainly a lot better than they were a couple years ago, but I still think there's a fair bit to go. And, of course, that Windows got worse doesn't mean it's okay for Linux to rest on its laurels (I know that's not what you were saying, just pointing it out).

~ Gerry

b0rsuk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 489
Registered: 11-23-2003
IP: Logged

You might not remember it, but vista was originally meant to have a commandline/shell, too. It's one of them broken promises, just like winfs. So much for 'obsolete'. Gods forbid me for making it look like vista is pinacle of 'moderness'.
After certain point, GUI literally slows you down, and is less flexible on top of that.

It should be very easy, if not default option, to launch gui programs in 'extra output' mode. I mean, they're supposed to return non-zero value if program fails to launch properly, or something. How hard could it be to make it display 'hidden' console messages if program fails to launch ?

To all KDE users here: install 'yakuake'. Quake-style console, you'll love it.
. I guess it could work in Gnome, too, because I made it work in xfce, but you'd probably have to install a lot of extra libraries.

____________________________

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051128/adams_01.shtml

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

I'm using yakuake, it's freaking awesome.

Also: Command-line is more powerful than a GUI. I accept this.

However, I telnet onto MUSHes.

I COULD use Tinyfugue. It is very powerful.

I choose to use KMuddy, because it has a GUI?

Why?

Because GUIs are freaking pretty. I like to click buttons. I like the fact that GUIs are pretty and have icons and pictures and I don't have to remember ten billion freaking commands.

In fact, while I do use the command line in Kubuntu a LOT, there is absolutely nothing wrong with suggesting that it's okay to have an OS that does not require command line to do every little thing.

(Note, aptitude is oddly my favorite package manager. I appreciate the speed.)

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

b0rsuk wrote:
You might not remember it, but vista was originally meant to have a commandline/shell, too.

Yeah, but

a) who's going to jump on the Vista bandwagon this early, especially considering all the anti-consumer measures they've taken with it and it's license, and

2. who needs Monad/PowersHell when zsh works just fine in Windows?

Yeah, I use Windows XP on my desktop (since you can run most open-source stuff on Windows anyway), and for everything else there's coLinux and my mighty 266MHz, 32MB RAM powered NSLU2 with Debian on it...

(Of course, you'd have to repeatedly assault me with a poking stick to make me use Windows as a server... *shudders*)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Briareos wrote:
Yeah, but

a) who's going to jump on the Vista bandwagon this early, especially considering all the anti-consumer measures they've taken with it and it's license, and

If your referring to the 'vista licence will only extend to two computers' they scrapped that.

They haven't, however, changed the rules on virtual machines and 'blackbox' kernel.

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:
If your referring to the 'vista licence will only extend to two computers' they scrapped that.

I know - that wouldn't have flown anyway.

They haven't, however, changed the rules on virtual machines and 'blackbox' kernel.

That's more like it - all that DRM crap in Vista and the inability to install/use drivers that haven't been signed by MS (or whichever non-trustworthy signing authority they'll go with...) doesn't improve things.

Can't see why I should pay about twice the price of Windows XP to actually get less...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

b0rsuk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 489
Registered: 11-23-2003
IP: Logged

Ok, jokes aside, BAZZZILIONS of people will use Vista. This is because
1) it will come with vast majority of new computers
2) people who like to complain about vista or whatever other windows version will end up using it anyway. Microsoft will take care of it making sure you need vista to run essential programs, formats etc. Games.

Some of complainers have have the guts to actually try something else - mac or linux, but they're less numerous than you'd think.

There are reasons to think that Ubuntu actually is the breakthrough Linux needed. But it won't change overnight.

____________________________

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051128/adams_01.shtml

---

[Last edited by b0rsuk at 11-07-2006 11:41 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

b0rsuk wrote:
Some of complainers have have the guts to actually try something else - mac or linux, but they're less numerous than you'd think.

There are reasons to think that Ubuntu actually is the breakthrough Linux needed. But it won't change overnight.

Weren't you just complaining that there are *too many* people switching from Windows to Ubuntu?

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

eytanz wrote:
Weren't you just complaining that there are *too many* people switching from Windows to Ubuntu?

I think he was complaining that too many people who couldn't use the advanced features of linux were joining the forums, but it still implies the same thing, and is one the the reasons that linux as it is now will never become mainstream.

(oh, and congrats on getting to 2006, eytanz)

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:
(oh, and congrats on getting to 2006, eytanz)

Am I the only one who was wondering for a moment what kind of bad jetlag Eytan must've gotten into to arrive in 2006 just now, over 10 months late?

np: Underworld - Pizza For Eggs (RiverRun Project)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Briareos wrote:

NiroZ wrote:
(oh, and congrats on getting to 2006, eytanz)

Am I the only one who was wondering for a moment what kind of bad jetlag Eytan must've gotten into to arrive in 2006 just now, over 10 months late?

np: Underworld - Pizza For Eggs (RiverRun Project)

Well, your 1229 behind getting to 2006.

tokyokid
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 453
Registered: 05-06-2006
IP: Logged

Hey guys, now that he's at 2006, lets wait 'til 2007 to mod him up!

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:
Well, your 1229 behind getting to 2006.

I'm working on it, don't you worry...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)