Watcher
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I'm not sure whether this is intentional or not. Anyway, if you're invisible, tar won't grow unless there's a tar mother inside the invisibility radius. So far, so good. However, it seems that it will also grow if there's a tar baby inside the radius. This seems like weird behavior. Discovered in Erik's new hold, 1N1E.

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Schik
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Mike and I were discussing that last night. I'm torn - I kinda like it, but then I worry that it's too limiting. What does everybody else think?


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krammer
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No. It's not at all intuitive. Tar babies don't cause tar to grow, they're independent from the tar and tar mothers. If you allow this then you might as well allow queens to spawn under invisibility when roaches are in range, as this is effectively the same. I don't think it really adds anything to the game and will just confuse players.

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ErikH2000
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krammer wrote:
No. It's not at all intuitive. Tar babies don't cause tar to grow, they're independent from the tar and tar mothers. If you allow this then you might as well allow queens to spawn under invisibility when roaches are in range, as this is effectively the same. I don't think it really adds anything to the game and will just confuse players.

I'm swayed. Just changed it to remove tar baby-caused spawns.

-Erik

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Oneiromancer
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Wait, I am even more confused now...why don't tar mothers grow regardless of Beethro's invisibility? I mean, they just want to expand, regardless of Beethro's presence, I should think. I made the same argument earlier with roach queens...I thought they should always spawn every 30 moves. In both cases, if roaches or tar babies don't run after Beethro because of his invisibility, then the spawning will (for roaches) or can be (for tar babies) stopped, but that is reasonable. The most intuitive thing to me is that spawning occurs regardless of Beethro's visibility. The only argument against that is to ask why Beethro doesn't come upon rooms that are already totally filled with tar or roaches. And I don't have an answer to that.

Game on,

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Mister
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Oneiromancer wrote:
why Beethro doesn't come upon rooms that are already totally filled with tar or roaches

You are right. The editor should be changed so that placing a roach queen fills the bounding area with roaches

ErikH2000
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Wait, I am even more confused now...why don't tar mothers grow regardless of Beethro's invisibility? I mean, they just want to expand, regardless of Beethro's presence, I should think.

This was my original stance, but I've come around. The puzzles you get out of spawn-only-if-smelled behavior are too good to pass up. Of course, a person can make the argument that the spawn-if-tar-babies-smell is good for puzzles too, but I think it takes us further into counter-intuition with less value.

Also, don't try to find the explanation for why monsters only come alive when you enter a room. That way lies madness!

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
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Oneiromancer
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Well, your hold has some pretty cool rooms utilizing this option, so I guess I don't have too much to complain about.

Game on,

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Scott
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Also, don't try to find the explanation for why monsters only come alive when you enter a room. That way lies madness!

They are obviously hibernating.