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Mister
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icon Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
Beethro can't be placed over a potion/arrow, but a potion/arrow can be placed under Beethro.

Beethro can't be placed over a checkpoint, but a checkpoint can be placed under Beethro (and is marked as an error).

Beethro can't be placed over tar, but tar can be placed under Beethro.

Monsters (not serpents) can be placed over tar (although are marked as errors), but tar can't be placed under monsters.

An orb can be placed under Beethro.

Pits can be placed under Beethro.
Pits can't be removed from under Beethro.

Open doors can't be placed under Beethro or a monster. I can be placed under serpents, except under the head.
Closed doors can be placed under monsters, but are marked as errors.
Placing a monster over an open door is allowed, but marked as an error.
Placing a monster over a closed yellow door doesn't work: it edit the door instead.

The 2x2 obstacle can be placed under Beethro.

Beethro's sword can't be placed over a serpent.

Beethro's sword can't be placed over anything it can interact with (monster, tar, crumblies). This may be ok, but it should be allowed when testing a room.



Strange behaviour:
- Place a yellow door (doesn't matter if open or closed).
- You can't edit it with the Beethro tool selected (it places Beethro instead).
- Now, place any monster, crumbly wall or living tar touching the door.
- Try to place Beethro over the door, so that his sword is over the monster/crumbly/tar: now you can edit the door.

08-03-2003 at 10:55 AM
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Schik
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icon Re: Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
Mister wrote:
Beethro can't be placed over a potion/arrow, but a potion/arrow can be placed under Beethro.

Beethro can't be placed over a checkpoint, but a checkpoint can be placed under Beethro (and is marked as an error).
Fixed.

Beethro can't be placed over tar, but tar can be placed under Beethro.
Hmm.. Is tar under Beethro valid? I'll leave this one.

Monsters (not serpents) can be placed over tar (although are marked as errors), but tar can't be placed under monsters.
I think this was determined to be valid, so I enabled it. I also fixed a nasty bug that resulted in tar that should turn into tar babies acting weird if there was a monster on it.

An orb can be placed under Beethro.

Pits can be placed under Beethro.
Pits can't be removed from under Beethro.

Open doors can't be placed under Beethro or a monster. I can be placed under serpents, except under the head.
These are all fixed.

The 2x2 obstacle can be placed under Beethro.
Can't reproduce - must be fixed.

Beethro's sword can't be placed over a serpent.
How odd. Fixed.

Beethro's sword can't be placed over anything it can interact with (monster, tar, crumblies). This may be ok, but it should be allowed when testing a room.
If it's not allowed in general, why does it need to be allowed for testing?



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08-03-2003 at 02:38 PM
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Mister
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icon Re: Re: Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
Schik wrote:
Mister wrote:
Beethro's sword can't be placed over anything it can interact with (monster, tar, crumblies). This may be ok, but it should be allowed when testing a room.
If it's not allowed in general, why does it need to be allowed for testing?
You can enter a room with the sword over anything.
Sure, you can test a room requiring that by starting the test at an adjacent room.
08-03-2003 at 09:17 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Re: Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
I also fixed a nasty bug that resulted in tar that should turn into tar babies acting weird if there was a monster on it.

Is that 'nasty' as in 'game breaking' or just 'strange'? Would this fix break my mini hold? I've made a couple of rooms so far using this behaviour, on the assurance it was going to be left as is...

http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=809

I won't worry about the loss if the bug is damaging, and that's really what the final intention is (and I've guessed correctly here) There are, after all, other ways of making timed locks. The alternatives are just less efficient space-wise...
08-03-2003 at 09:54 PM
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agaricus5
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It sort of depends on your viewpoint. From mine, it's strange but horrible as you get an odd 1*1 square of tar resembling the tar bugs we got when we were testing the alpha, and I think it should be fixed as it looks bad and also once made, cannot be removed.

Suggestion - if a monster is on tar and it is cut in such a way that the square below should become a tar baby, the monster on top survives as it squashes the tar baby below. (It could make some interesting goblin puzzles).

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08-03-2003 at 10:20 PM
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StuartK
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It's far too late at night for this (2am) so provisional apologies for any diplomatic lapses. I will of course accept any final decision from Erik, as if I even have any choice :P

agaricus5 wrote:
It sort of depends on your viewpoint. From mine, it's strange but horrible as you get an odd 1*1 square of tar resembling the tar bugs we got when we were testing the alpha, and I think it should be fixed as it looks bad and also once made, cannot be removed.

Did you read my explanation in the linked thread? As far as I'm concerned, it's still good and logical (and, at the time, accepted) As for the graphical representation, it chimes with the tar being 'dead' or perhaps better 'dormant' or 'squashed'. And the dormant tar can re-grow on the next tar mother growth cycle (provided the creature above it moves off or is dispensed with first) at which point it can then be cleared.

Uses for that behaviour include the demonstrated time locks e.g. a 2x3 tar block (with walls on each side, and a space behind, so more accurately 3x5) can slow Beethro down for 30-40 turns, whereas a snake is a turn a square, so double the space for the same effect. Just being stuck behind a temporary wall isn't very interesting on its own, so perhaps give the player something else to do while he's waiting (as an example, more than one 'lock' to work on simultaneously, in order that the player has to choose how to clear them all quickly enough to achieve another objective) In rooms without tar mothers, there's potential for different types of mazes, either selectively blocking certain routes, or giving the player a puzzle of how to get the creatures off the tar before destroying it. Different creatures move in different ways. Goblins, unless blocked from behind, will move off of their own accord, as you walk up to the tar. Roaches will back off if you move alongside them in an adjacent corridor. Brains do not move at all (giving a puzzle of how to clear all the brains, without blocking your way?)

Suggestion - if a monster is on tar and it is cut in such a way that the square below should become a tar baby, the monster on top survives as it squashes the tar baby below. (It could make some interesting goblin puzzles).

Are these puzzles that could not be created some other way (for instance, by just having goblins behind tar, or an orb activated wall) Why have creatures ontop of tar at all, if it's as if it didn't exist when they 'fall back down'?


But to reiterate, I only see a good variety of puzzles being removed here, and nothing worthwhile added to the game in their place.
08-04-2003 at 01:57 AM
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Schik
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icon Re: Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
It was 'strange', as demonstrated in your hold (I hadn't seen it until now).

If Erik and Mike want, I can certainly unfix it. Not having had read that thread, I saw it as a bug that caused some rather unexpected, ugly, behavior. If I wasn't involved in the beta testing and saw that happen in a hold in the final release, I would definitely think that it was a bug and not the intended behavior.

With my change, it is as agaricus suggested - whatever monster was there lives, and no tar baby is created.

As I said, I'm willing to unfix it. I'd prefer to leave it as it now is or define some other behavior that is more what I'd expect to happen. Thoughts?


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08-04-2003 at 02:55 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Re: Re: Lotsa editor bugs (0)  
StuartK wrote:
Is that 'nasty' as in 'game breaking' or just 'strange'? Would this fix break my mini hold? I've made a couple of rooms so far using this behaviour, on the assurance it was going to be left as is...
Stuart, I'm sorry about messing up your rooms, but I made a decision today to not allow monsters on top of tar. I did look at your dead tar hold. My opinion afterwards, was that we should not make the rules of tar formation any more complex than they are now. The behavior we get with monsters on top of the tar isn't very intuitive. If there are useful design advantages to this, I would rather create a different, more intuitive element that accomplishes the same thing.

And I am embarrassed about changing my mind on this one. Originally, I said "let's leave it as it is", but after I looked at it closer...

-Erik

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08-04-2003 at 07:42 PM
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StuartK
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Stuart, I'm sorry about messing up your rooms, but I made a decision today to not allow monsters on top of tar. I did look at your dead tar hold. My opinion afterwards, was that we should not make the rules of tar formation any more complex than they are now. The behavior we get with monsters on top of the tar isn't very intuitive. If there are useful design advantages to this, I would rather create a different, more intuitive element that accomplishes the same thing.

And I am embarrassed about changing my mind on this one. Originally, I said "let's leave it as it is", but after I looked at it closer...

-Erik

Ahh, the diplomatic solution - try to annoy everyone equally :D

If you're interested, I can post or send you a mini-hold with a few of the building blocks I was using for tar/brain mazes. I don't know how otherwise the same behaviour would be achieved. Maybe I'll complete what I've got and release it with the proviso that build 34 will be required for those interested in playing it, though I'm more likely just to adapt it so it works with build 35+, if I can.

The other use for the 'dead tar' was the timelock, like a snake but far more space efficient. It was rather a gimmick, and a dedicated feature would offer greater versatility. Perhaps something that is activated by floor plates (that could be placed at the edge of the room, to start the countdown immediately upon Beethro entering)
08-05-2003 at 05:45 PM
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ErikH2000
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StuartK wrote:
If you're interested, I can post or send you a mini-hold with a few of the building blocks I was using for tar/brain mazes. I don't know how otherwise the same behaviour would be achieved. Maybe I'll complete what I've got and release it with the proviso that build 34 will be required for those interested in playing it, though I'm more likely just to adapt it so it works with build 35+, if I can.
I think you get grandfathered in, because it is only the editor that disallows the placement. Just use build 34 if you want to make any changes to those rooms.
The other use for the 'dead tar' was the timelock, like a snake but far more space efficient. It was rather a gimmick, and a dedicated feature would offer greater versatility. Perhaps something that is activated by floor plates (that could be placed at the edge of the room, to start the countdown immediately upon Beethro entering)
Hmm. Could you post something with the rooms containing dead tar that serve as a timelock? I do understand the usefulness of compact timers. I used a couple of tar timers in 1n1w of Smallsome Swicks.

-Erik

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 08-05-2003 at 06:54 PM GMT: Oops wrong subject.]

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08-05-2003 at 06:49 PM
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StuartK
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I think you get grandfathered in, because it is only the editor that disallows the placement. Just use build 34 if you want to make any changes to those rooms.

No, Schik's fix breaks the logic too...


Hmm. Could you post something with the rooms containing dead tar that serve as a timelock? I do understand the usefulness of compact timers. I used a couple of tar timers in 1n1w of Smallsome Swicks.

The timelock I'm talking about is the one demonstrated (rather artificially) in the Dead tar minihold. Like I said, a gimmick, or at least, I haven't built a room that makes good use of it yet. Basically, it's a tactic for halting Beethros progress while something else is happening. It might also be useful if the hold designer wants to 'sychronise' Beethro with the room, since after clearing it, he should be in a predictable location at a predictable time.

I'll post a hold on the architecture board.
08-06-2003 at 01:27 PM
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