ErikH2000
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Continue "Jesus is Lord" discussion from the Questionnaire topic here please.

-Erik

____________________________
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ErikH2000
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I think the thing that I agree on with Eytan is that we don't want these boards to be used as a tool for religious advocacy. There are other forms of advocacy we guard against as well, commercialism (spamming) being the most common problem. A lot of times it is very difficult to tell when someone is just expressing himself or has taken it upon himself to influence others to his way of thinking. And I'm sure many times there is a mixture of expression and influence in a speaker's goals--the latter may even be just a habit the speaker has grown accustomed to. You can't blame people for being suspicious, because we've all been pitched at by different evangelistic people when we didn't want to be, often in the guise of normal friendly conversation.

That said, I don't think coordinating signatures to have a certain message is a big deal. But you better have a thick skin when somebody adds say... "Religion is the opiate of the masses. -Karl Marx" to their signature. And will you be particularly bothered by a few "Hail Satan!"s here and there? After all, Satanism is a religion seriously practiced by a number of people. Personally, I find it slightly distasteful to wear one's ideology on one's sleeve, and I go out of my way not to talk about mine. But you are welcome to express yourself that way here. Just please don't think of the forum as a place for religious advocacy.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 08-13-2006 08:24 PM]

Von Krieg
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I completely agree with you, Erik--that this forum is no place for religious advocacy, indeed of any form of advocacy save DROD. I certainly don't come on these boards to talk about Jesus.

Nevertheless, I would urge people who feel offended by those who "wear their ideology on their sleeves" as it were to reconsider their offense. Namely, that these people (most of them) genuinely believe their ideologies. When I was an atheist I couldn't help but think most all of them were either (a) common and stupid and so were cosmically duped into believing fairytale nonsense or (b) psychologically unstable salesmen trying to purchase their way into heaven through the amount of people they were able to convert, or (c) rich preachers making a profit out of the gullibility of common men. I'll admit, I was really arrogant when I was an atheist. Since my conversion, I've had a change of heart and now see things a little bit better from their perspective, and it gives me a deeper appreciation for their very pardonable motives. I'm not saying that sheisters don't exist--of course they do--but I was really surprised to find out how many more people were genuine believers.

If we take group X (and group X includes Muslims, Christians, Mormons and a few other smaller sects) that genuinely believes in a heaven where all man's deepest longings and desires are consummated for all eternity with the being who made not only them but all life as we know it (past, present and future), and also in hell where man's basest desires are rewarded with eternal punishments of anguishing torment for rejecting truth... and that group X believes they alone possess the truth that will decide their eternal resting place... then, consequently, their only natural (and supremely good and noble) response would be to shout their faith from the rooftops. In this respect, I can only admire the sincere Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc... in their efforts to attempt to convert me--even though I believe (I cannot be untrue to my beliefs) that apart from Christ and Christ alone they will die in their sins. In fact, if they did believe all of that and did not attempt to preach their version of the gospel, wouldn't they be consigning me to hell? That they do attempt to persuade is the clearest indication of their belief and--if its followed to its root motive, how can I be offended if they're only trying to offer me paradise at the expense of hellfire?

I think what we find uncomfortable is perhaps the persistence of some of these folks; their tenacity and their complete inability to relate to me, the unbeliever on equal grounds. They have the truth and we do not. We're the wrong ones that need to be changed. This is of course a perfectly valid response to badgering proselytizers, and it's also why I'm glad religious advocacy on this forum is so greatly discouraged. My only point in all of this is to say that there is a profound difference between that and what's going on with the "Jesus is Lord!" signatures. And if it is offensive (which a few people have mentioned it is), I would urge them to reconsider why it's so offensive. Even if it did carry with it a hint of advocacy (and I cannot deny even as St. Paul did not deny that he would wish all to be saved), that it is rather a measure of good will in the highest order and not ill.

But, I have a confession to make: even this self-admitted hint gets swallowed up with Jesus simply being the center of my universe. All preaching the Gospel aside, my sig is who I am.

(One last thing: It doesn't bother me in the slightest if I bump into satanists, marxists, bhuddists, atheists, etc... I believe the same God made us both and loves us no less.)

____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
-- The Apostle Paul

Jesus is Lord!

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[Last edited by Von Krieg at 08-13-2006 09:19 PM]

ErikH2000
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Von Krieg, it's cool. Keep your sig. Enjoy the forum! Enjoy your faith!

-Erik

____________________________
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Mikko
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I think it's great that viewing signatures is optional here.

Maurog
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I don't find it offensive really, merely unpleasant. It's the online equivalent of wearing a huge golden cross on a thick chain around your neck. This is just a personal opinion of course.



____________________________
"For to me to live is Chaos and to die is pain."
-- Dark Supplicant

Satan is Lord!


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Paint the sky in crimson red!

tokyokid
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Maurog wrote:
I don't find it offensive really, merely unpleasant. It's the online equivalent of wearing a huge golden cross on a thick chain around your neck. This is just a personal opinion of course.

I agree. Post it in your signatures, but beware it might offend people. I personally, don't mind too much.

Von Krieg
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Von Krieg, it's cool. Keep your sig. Enjoy the forum! Enjoy your faith!

-Erik

Thanks, Erik. By the way, I have been enjoying the forum. Immensely. So many great posts--it's been almost as much fun or even a little more fun than playing DROD itself. You guys are great and I say this seriously: DROD *is* the best game in the world.

--Jordan

____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
-- The Apostle Paul

Jesus is Lord!

eytanz
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As the person who originally complained, I'd just like to reiterate that I have no issue with "Jesus is Lord" signatures. The only problem I had was with people making posts telling *other people* to put them on. And moreso, there was nothing wrong with the individual posts doing so per se, I just wanted to nip the trend in the bud before anyone makes a post that was problematic.

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Tim
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tokyokid wrote:
I agree. Post it in your signatures, but beware it might offend people. I personally, don't mind too much.

The problem with not minding too much is that other people will use that as an justifiction for things. Religions bring lot of things, good and bad.

It is the bringer of marriage, devotion, community, truth (middle ages), terrorism (7-11), genocide (Germany in WWII), abuse (catholic churches, inquisition), war (everywhere), power, and excuses for all of the above.

Personally, I never want a package deal. Perhaps because I've seen a lot in my life, and had to make choice myself all my life, and because I can think for myself, I can choose exactly what I want to believe. Why settle for a package when you can have something better?

Note that this is a DROD forum, and I respect everyone here just because of that. But I don't need to be converted. I can think for myself, thank you.

-- Tim

PS. And to the 'Jesus is Lord' claims, I do wonder why they think Jesus is more important than the christian values...

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[Last edited by Tim at 08-30-2006 09:21 PM]

Ezlo
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Tim wrote
PS. And to the 'Jesus is Lord' claims, I do wonder why they think Jesus is more important than the christian values...

I really don't want to get into any religous debate here, so listen to this as an answer, not a retaliation please. The reason agknowledging that Jesus is our Lord and Savior is more important than the values we live by is because all we need to do is belive in Jesus and he will save us, even if we don't follow everything he tells us to do all the time. That's no excuse to blatantly not follow everything, we should still try to do what God tells us to do anyway. The scary thing is, and I'm not quite sure whether I like this or not, is the fact that if Hitler truely belived in Jesus and thought that what he was doing was God's work, then he gets into Heaven too. That doesn't quite sit well with me.

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Call me Citrus.

Tim
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Ezlo wrote:
I really don't want to get into any religous debate here, so listen to this as an answer, not a retaliation please. The reason agknowledging that Jesus is our Lord and Savior is more important than the values we live by is because all we need to do is belive in Jesus and he will save us, even if we don't follow everything he tells us to do all the time.

Thank you for your answer. I'm just asking it, because I've never heard of it before. It seems that you do believe Jesus more than his values, which justifies the use of the signature.

Have a mod point

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[Last edited by Tim at 08-14-2006 12:20 AM]

Von Krieg
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Yeah, the values are certainly important but they won't get us into heaven. Jesus will.

Ezlo: Jesus admonished the disciples about the Pharisees who were going to throw rocks at them telling them, "they think they're doing the will of God." He also said not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is going to enter the kingdom of heaven--only those who do the will of my Father." I guess I just don't see anyone duping Jesus. If a person really, genuinely converts, their hearts are going to change. I mean, can you honestly see Hitler telling God, "Well, in order to do your will, I had to torture and kill millions of the people of your promise," and God saying, "Well done, you good and faithful servant." That doesn't rub with me, and I know God's alot smarter.

____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
-- The Apostle Paul

Jesus is Lord!

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[Last edited by Von Krieg at 08-14-2006 01:01 AM]

Ezlo
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Yes, but if he truly belived that what he was doing was the will of God, and he believed in Jesus, he certainly will get "scolding" during the Judgement, but Jesus still washes away all sins, even the slaughtering of millions.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

Rabscuttle
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Mikko wrote:
I think it's great that viewing signatures is optional here.

Thank Krishna for that.

The signatures bug me a little, but all signatures bug me a little. Once I again no longer have to see them when replying, I will once more not care. (Also, is it just me, or did signatures used to not show up when you weren't logged in? I prefer it that way)

Von Krieg
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(DISCLAIMER: This is a religious post. Please don't read it if you don't want to. I'm just responding to Ezlo's last post. Please feel free to tell me to stop if it's offensive to anyone.)

Well, if he accepted Jesus he would have been filled with the Holy Spirit. I think when that happens even if a person wanted to sin and delude themselves into believing what they were doing is right, the Holy Spirit would convict them. If that works in my life on a really small scale, I'd imagine it would be a megaphone in a person who's about to slaughter millions--and not just millions--I mean millions of God's chosen people. I think I begin to see your point, though. Certainly, the grace exists in Jesus to forgive something even as horrific as the holocaust--but was Hitler asking for God to forgive that? Extended grace is only possible to a person who asks for it because only a repentant heart would even want to. Hitler died because he shot himself in the head. I don't know, Ezlo. I've got alot of questions, too, that I think are only going to be answered on the other side of glory. I guess I'd just be really, really surprised if I saw Hitler standing next to Paul and C.S. Lewis.

Also, we sometimes (and by "we" I predominantly mean "me") delude ourselves into believing or thinking what we're doing is right when we know in our hearts it isn't. I think when we come face to face with God (who knows everything), all of our flimsy arguments are going to topple, and we're going to be left muttering, "yeah, I knew it was wrong..." Just a thought.

____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
-- The Apostle Paul

Jesus is Lord!

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[Last edited by Von Krieg at 08-14-2006 01:28 AM]

Ezlo
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Yeah, I was just using Hitler as an extreme example, I don't actually believe he was saved, but you never know.

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Von Krieg
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It's cool. By the way, I just read both stories you submitted in the contests. They were great.

____________________________
"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
-- The Apostle Paul

Jesus is Lord!

Ezlo
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Both, I only wrote one. Or did you mean either Elfstone or Larry?

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gamer_extreme_101
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I'm going to make a statement here, and this is a statement made by a Christian, if anyone's interested.

I have no problem with people believing in different religions, whether it be Jewish, Catholic, Mormon or anything else. People have the freedom and right to choose what they want. Where my problem comes in is when people start preaching and attempting to convert people who don't want it.

It's perfectly fine to believe in Christ, but it's one thing to subject other people who don't believe in Him to this kind of thing. It's their own choice to believe or not believe, and neither I nor anyone else has the right to force their own religion upon people who don't believe. It's their choice, and I hold nothing against them for choosing that way of life.

I know there are going to be a few people who disagree with me, so I'd like to remind us all of what He told His followers in Matthew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

The forum is a place for free speech and the interchange of opinion, but when beliefs get crossed to a point where it can make people feel awkward, I think it's time to put a stop to it.

____________________________
--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

golfrman
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I'm going to make a statement here, and this is a statement made by a Christian, if anyone's interested.

I have no problem with people believing in different religions, whether it be Jewish, Catholic, Mormon or anything else. People have the freedom and right to choose what they want. Where my problem comes in is when people start preaching and attempting to convert people who don't want it.

It's perfectly fine to believe in Christ, but it's one thing to subject other people who don't believe in Him to this kind of thing. It's their own choice to believe or not believe, and neither I nor anyone else has the right to force their own religion upon people who don't believe. It's their choice, and I hold nothing against them for choosing that way of life.

I know there are going to be a few people who disagree with me, so I'd like to remind us all of what He told His followers in Matthew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

The forum is a place for free speech and the interchange of opinion, but when beliefs get crossed to a point where it can make people feel awkward, I think it's time to put a stop to it.

i agree, i'm nowhere near evangelism, but i am against those people who run around shouting JESUS LOVES YOU REPENT THE END IS NEAR YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!
in people's faces

P.S.
i now have Jesus is Lord in my signature also, well, i have Jesus is Lord and Messiah, but it's the ame thing,

____________________________
Jesus is Lord and Messiah!

Mattcrampy
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I wonder if it would be bad taste to put "Jesus is Earl" in my signature.

I wouldn't, but I wonder.

The limit of my contribution on this topic will be limited to silly statements like this.

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Blondbeard
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To me this signature IS offensive. I find it offensive when someone publacally praises someone who wants to send me to a place where I will be tortured forever. That's what the God of the bible will do to those who don't belive in him (like me). I certanly think people may belive whatever they want, but I don't really want them to publically praise the one they belive is going to torture me after I die.

Maurog
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Blondbeard wrote:
That's what the God of the bible will do to those who don't belive in him (like me).

Anyone else spotted the contradiction?

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Paint the sky in crimson red!

Blondbeard
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You mean the fact that I don't belive that will happen, because I'm not a Christian? That's why I was quite careful of writing that I find it ofensive that someone (Christians on the forum in this case) praises someone (the Christian God) THEY (not me) belive will torture me for all eternity. I do find that offensive, no matter what my own belives are. I really don't want to draw paralells, because I'm quite sure someone would find THAT offensive.

Svante
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I don't really find it offensive, just very irritating. That is because when I see someone who is religious on the internet, my first instict is to debate( in a friendly manner, of course). And we don't really have a place for that here.

Blondbeard has a good point too.

-Svante( who posted this just to show off his signature)

Jason
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Svante wrote:
I don't really find it offensive, just very irritating. That is because when I see someone who is religious on the internet, my first instict is to debate( in a friendly manner, of course). And we don't really have a place for that here.

Blondbeard has a good point too.

-Svante( who posted this just to show off his signature)

___________________________________________________________

'm a lurker. Congratulations on finding one of my posts!

Nothing is lord without proper evidence.

Definitely not. All we have to do is find the evidence.

____________________________
Play my holds?

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[Last edited by Jason at 08-14-2006 12:39 PM]

Briareos
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Blondbeard wrote:
Christians on the forum in this case

That's strange - I could only find one...

np: Yello - Domingo (Stella)
(Heh... I guess some people definitively must have been upset over it's lyrics when it came out in 1985... )

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
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Beef Row
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Von Krieg wrote:
I guess I'd just be really, really surprised if I saw Hitler standing next to Paul and C.S. Lewis.

How about Martin Luther then? As the founder of Lutheranism and one of the most influential early protestants, most Christians would be quite inclined to expect him in heaven. However, his suggestions on the treatment of Jews resemble those of Hitler quite closely (forced labor, confiscation of property, execution of those continue to teach their faith, burning their books and synagogues, and advising you may kill or rob any Jew found travelling).

While ML didn't quite have the power to put these ideas into a full-scale plan, does this leave him any more innocent than Hitler?

Incidentally, I would note that his claimed motivation for this is the desire to protect others from hell-fire. Including the Jews. This may be one reason people can be offended or made uneasy even by someone sincerely trying to save them, since there is a long and inglorious history of similar attempts (for another religious example, take the Inquisition. For a political one seeking to 'save' people in this lifetime, take the Cold War (on both sides).

Just to be clear, I'm not accusing ANYONE on this board of this ugly sort of proseletyzing, just pointing out that it happens, and is one cause of some people's unease around the more ordinary sort.

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Oneiromancer
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Guys, we're starting to veer into the territory that we want to avoid the most here. If you don't want this thread to get locked, don't post flamebait, and don't respond to flamebait.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams