ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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silver wrote:
at what point would be not "bad" of me to post details about what moves I made, which ones I've queued up, and why, by way of explicating the rules? I'm alone in my pit so there's no advantage there, but there's 2 or 3 other people in precisely my position at the moment.
I also would like to compare and contrast it with trick's position. which I believe to be harmless now because I think he knows just how to get out.

Please feel free to talk about whatever aspects you like. I'm not going to make any rules regarding what can be talked about during the contest. But also, I want this first snakepit to be about learning, so I encourage people to discuss it.

I will post my own analysis after a bit.

-Erik

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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 08-14-2006 08:10 PM]

ErikH2000
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silver wrote:
isn't this one of those things where a computer (in this case the webserver) could keep much better and more accurate logs, which would resolve all ambiguity?

Yes, but I don't have time to write it.

-Erik

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McFrugal
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Maurog wrote:
I disagree with that solution. This is important - the right sequence that should be used is shown below:

There's an error there. The 10th Jump would cause the snake to jump to the right. A Bump there is needed to achieve the desired result.

ErikH2000
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McFrugal wrote:
There's an error there. The 10th Jump would cause the snake to jump to the right. A Bump there is needed to achieve the desired result.

Do you mean the 10th jump taken chronologically? I.e. first time snake jumps is jump #1, second time is jump #2, and so on. If so, I don't see the error, because the snake is already moving to the right after the 10th jump, whether he bumps or jumps.

-Erik

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Doom
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ErikH2000 wrote:

McFrugal wrote:
There's an error there. The 10th Jump would cause the snake to jump to the right. A Bump there is needed to achieve the desired result.

Do you mean the 10th jump taken chronologically? I.e. first time snake jumps is jump #1, second time is jump #2, and so on. If so, I don't see the error, because the snake is already moving to the right after the 10th jump, whether he bumps or jumps.

There seems to be indeed a mistake two tiles above the snake's head. It should move SOUTH in the picture, instead of turning NORTH.

Which just proves that using bumps more often has it's advantages.

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[Last edited by Doom at 08-14-2006 09:37 PM]

jbluestein
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ErikH2000 wrote:

McFrugal wrote:
There's an error there. The 10th Jump would cause the snake to jump to the right. A Bump there is needed to achieve the desired result.

Do you mean the 10th jump taken chronologically? I.e. first time snake jumps is jump #1, second time is jump #2, and so on. If so, I don't see the error, because the snake is already moving to the right after the 10th jump, whether he bumps or jumps.

-Erik

I think he must mean the 10th 'J' on the snake, which would be (by my count) with the snake head directly to the right of the box in the center of the room. With the head there, a 'J' would cause a jump to the right (south), while the snake is shown moving to the left.


[EDIT: Whoops, it's actually the 9th J, gotta remember not to double-count that one on the crossover.]

____________________________
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[Last edited by jbluestein at 08-14-2006 09:37 PM]

ErikH2000
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Actually, I think I was talking about the 11th jump using chronological counting. On the 10th jump, the snake moves up whether you bump or jump. Anyhow, Maurog's solution looks correct to me although no different than mine in results.

-Erik

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ErikH2000
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Doom wrote:
There seems to be indeed a mistake two tiles above the snake's head. It should move SOUTH in the picture, instead of turning NORTH.

Oh yeah. Harder to see it when the picture shows all of the space filled in.

-Erik

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McFrugal
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After extended review I have to conclude that the top snake in the pair chamber is completely safe if it has a partner, but the bottom snake is not. There are two ways for the bottom snake to die in that situation. Both are avoidable.

Interestingly enough, if there is only one snake in the chamber, the situation is reversed. Instead, the top snake can die while the bottom snake cannot.

Oh, and yeah I meant the 9th 'J'. Stupid crossover.

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[Last edited by McFrugal at 08-14-2006 10:03 PM]

ErikH2000
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I found four ways the top snake could die, and one way the bottom snake could. I am happy that among the pairs of snakes, no top snake chose to jump over the first box, which would have been fatal. I had thought people would be in too big of a hurry to jump over something, with all the waiting, but calmer heads prevailed.

-Erik

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TripleM
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I worked out (hopefully) that by not jumping there, I could actually plan my whole set of moves straight away - ie, as soon as the game started, no matter what the other snake does.

edit - hang on, what am I talking about? You *can't* jump over that first box, because it would involve jumping over a live snake head. Thats probably the reason nobody did

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[Last edited by TripleM at 08-14-2006 11:07 PM]

Sergenth
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Good catch, TripleM!

In pairing chambers with two currently live snakes, the top snake must make the next available jump in order to guarantee its survival. If the top bumps, the bottom snake, who may jump into the center, could block the top snake with its head at the last moment. If the top snake does jump, then both snakes are guaranteed to go into the last part of the chambers, no matter what may be in either snakes command ques.

This is the second significant positioning where one snake could conceivably ruin the other after a bad move choice. I'm enjoying the "strategery" already!

The first was when some snakes didn't come out of the first tunnel... that could conceivably ruin the chances of people who made a long string of moves in advance believing there would be a snake to bump against in the future.

zex20913
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Erik--does this mean that if an attempt is made to jump onto a live snake head, then the snake is dead?

Or does a live snake head act as a wall? If this is the case, I also agree with TripleM.

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TripleM
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Sergenth wrote:
Good catch, TripleM!

In pairing chambers with two currently live snakes, the top snake must make the next available jump in order to guarantee its survival. If the top bumps, the bottom snake, who may jump into the center, could block the top snake with its head at the last moment.

Uh, I think its perfectly safe for the top snake to do whatever he/she wants Its the bottom snake that may get in trouble.

eytanz
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zex20913 wrote:
Erik--does this mean that if an attempt is made to jump onto a live snake head, then the snake is dead?

Or does a live snake head act as a wall? If this is the case, I also agree with TripleM.

It acts as a wall (at least if the rules are accurate).

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ErikH2000
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zex20913 wrote:
Or does a live snake head act as a wall? If this is the case, I also agree with TripleM.

It acts like a wall. Whenever your snake *can* move in any direction, it will stay alive. The only way you can die is to run out of moves.

-Erik

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eytanz
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This made me think of a variant of this game where you could kill a fellow serpent by jumping over it's head...

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
This made me think of a variant of this game where you could kill a fellow serpent by jumping over it's head...

That might be fun for a future game. It would certainly make for a more aggressive style of play. Hmm.

-Erik

____________________________
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ErikH2000
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I'll be interested to see what the snakes do on turn 27 which is coming up soon. There is an opportunity for one of the snakes to die.

-Erik

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NiroZ
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I would just like to request that he place that you can input the moves and select the snakes be in a different frame, thus allowing you to move around the picture and input commands at will, rather than keep having to scroll back up to the top right hand corner to do so.

Chris
Level: Master Delver
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Sergenth wrote:
In pairing chambers with two currently live snakes, the top snake must make the next available jump in order to guarantee its survival. If the top bumps, the bottom snake, who may jump into the center, could block the top snake with its head at the last moment.

That's not quite right. If the top snake bumps and the bottom snake jumps, then the bottom snake dies, for sure. Remember that the top snake moves first, and it effectively one step ahead of the bottom snake, so it can jump down just before it is blocked by the bottom snake:

Sergenth wrote:
If the top snake does jump, then both snakes are guaranteed to go into the last part of the chambers, no matter what may be in either snakes command ques.

I'm not sure what you mean by "last part of the chambers" - but if you mean they both exit the pair chamber alive, that's not true either:

The top snake could die:


and so could the bottom one:



I think I've followed the rules correctly, particularly, does the top snake always move first?

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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Well, that was stupid of me. Just goes to show you probably shouldn't enter your moves while sleepy.

TripleM
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Heh. Only Krishh fell into the first trap. There'll be plenty more to come, though.

Tahnan
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TripleM wrote:
Heh. Only Krishh fell into the first trap. There'll be plenty more to come, though.

He did? There was a trap?

TripleM
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Tahnan wrote:

TripleM wrote:
Heh. Only Krishh fell into the first trap. There'll be plenty more to come, though.

He did? There was a trap?

See Chris' post above. All moves in Krishh's section are now forced, until Krishh dies, unfortunately.

Hikari
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TripleM wrote:
Heh. Only Krishh fell into the first trap. There'll be plenty more to come, though.

Oh, so you *did* do that on purpose?

Hmm. Four attempts at the first trap of the game, and one person fell into it. Neat. So that brings it down to 44 left in the running, right?

Hey Erik, once a snake reaches the easternmost column, does the next turn for that player start them on the full arena, or do we wait until everyone's either dead or free from this map first?

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[Last edited by Hikari at 08-15-2006 09:47 AM]

NiroZ
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Hikari wrote:

TripleM wrote:
Heh. Only Krishh fell into the first trap. There'll be plenty more to come, though.

Oh, so you *did* do that on purpose?

Hmm. Four attempts at the first trap of the game, and one person fell into it. Neat. So that brings it down to 44 left in the running, right?

Hey Erik, once a snake reaches the easternmost column, does the next turn for that player start them on the full arena, or do we wait until everyone's either dead or free from this map first?

As far as i can tell, he's going to wait for every one to finish, I guess its becayse that the differences in the finishing time shouldn't be very long.

zex20913
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Hikari wrote:

Hmm. Four attempts at the first trap of the game, and one person fell into it. Neat. So that brings it down to 44 left in the running, right?

I actually counted five attempts--4 unsuccessful (Curse you for bumping, Banjooie!) and 1 successful.

As a note, I stupidly thought that I would be shortly dead because of my trap attempt, but that is not the case. Continue regularly scheduled programming.

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TripleM
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This is incredible. Even in such a tiny space, theres still so many strategizing that can go on.
For example..

By my calculations, in my area (where neither me nor Hikari jumped initially), there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die (feel free to type in complete random commands ), whereas I can die in 4 of them. I have two possible winning sequences, one that requires me to type in 10 commands, one that requires 8.

eytanz
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TripleM wrote:
This is incredible. Even in such a tiny space, theres still so many strategizing that can go on.
For example..

By my calculations, in my area (where neither me nor Hikari jumped initially), there are 8 possible sequences. Hikari cannot die (feel free to type in complete random commands ), whereas I can die in 4 of them. I have two possible winning sequences, one that requires me to type in 10 commands, one that requires 8.

Funny how this game is balanced, no? As a bottom snake, I am taking more risks - but that just means that the contest is a lot more interesting for me than for the top snake who really can only profit from mistakes I make and can't force an outcome (as far as I can see).

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