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zex20913
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icon Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
In builds 30 and 31 (haven't updated yet to 32), the title screen states that it is the "Architects' Edition". I believe it should be "Architect's Edition". One means "edition of architects (as in a person named architects.)" and the other means "edition of the architechts"

I think I read somewhere that the title screen would not be messed with, as it takes much time for creating that text. Whether or not that is the case, I thought that this ought to be pointed out.

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07-25-2003 at 12:59 AM
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krammer
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
Nonononono!

It's right as it is. Architect's means belonging to an architect, singular. Architects' means belonging to multiple architects.

As we want the plural possessive here (everyone is potentially an architect) then Architects' Edition is correct.

Actually, you're right, if a person's name ends in s you use the plural form but only because, say, Thomas's looks stupid.

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07-25-2003 at 08:48 AM
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eytanz
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quote:
krammer wrote:
Nonononono!

It's right as it is. Architect's means belonging to an architect, singular. Architects' means belonging to multiple architects.

As we want the plural possessive here (everyone is potentially an architect) then Architects' Edition is correct.



Yup.

quote:

Actually, you're right, if a person's name ends in s you use the plural form but only because, say, Thomas's looks stupid.


Here it's not so simple - as far as I know that's one of the things that varies widely between different dialects - it's not even as simple as English vs. American, it's something that can really change from person to person (or from editor to editor in the case of publications). If you pay attention to this while reading stuff published in different places, it's easy to see names are spelt inconsistently.

Personally, I would always spell it "Thomas's", because that's how you pronounce it - as opposed to "architects'", where the "s" is only pronounced once (at least correctly - I know people who would say "architects's" for the plural but they are all non-English speakers.)

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07-25-2003 at 10:32 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Re: Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
quote:
eytanz wrote:
quote:
krammer wrote:
Actually, you're right, if a person's name ends in s you use the plural form but only because, say, Thomas's looks stupid.


Here it's not so simple - as far as I know that's one of the things that varies widely between different dialects - it's not even as simple as English vs. American, it's something that can really change from person to person (or from editor to editor in the case of publications). If you pay attention to this while reading stuff published in different places, it's easy to see names are spelt inconsistently.

Personally, I would always spell it "Thomas's", because that's how you pronounce it - as opposed to "architects'", where the "s" is only pronounced once (at least correctly - I know people who would say "architects's" for the plural but they are all non-English speakers.)

My English grammar book mostly agrees with you, Zex. It says (I quote):

"....Where ownership is shared by two or more nouns, the apostrophe comes after the s, as in the girls' hats, the dogs' bones, etc. ...."

"Most proper nouns ending in s take apostrophe-s, as in Columbus's ship, Charles's reign, etc. ...."


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07-25-2003 at 11:05 AM
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Mister
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
Why not "ASdlM: Edición del Arquitecto"? :P

07-25-2003 at 02:59 PM
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eytanz
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quote:
agaricus5 wrote:
My English grammar book mostly agrees with you, Zex. It says (I quote):

"....Where ownership is shared by two or more nouns, the apostrophe comes after the s, as in the girls' hats, the dogs' bones, etc. ...."

"Most proper nouns ending in s take apostrophe-s, as in Columbus's ship, Charles's reign, etc. ...."



Not to belabour a point, but this more-or-less is the opposite of what Zex said.

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07-25-2003 at 03:49 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
Whether or not one or the other is incorrect, there's an inconsistency, since the top of the Forum page says:
quote:
Announcement: "DROD: Architect's Edition" is now in beta.
So I'm not sure which is the desired spelling.

[Edited by mrimer on 07-25-2003 at 09:13 PM]

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07-25-2003 at 09:12 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
Maybe it should be called DROD: Edition of the Architect


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07-25-2003 at 09:14 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
I think Architect's Edition is better, because the singular functions as a generic; it's the same logic for titles such as Player's Handbook, Reader's Digest, and Reese's Pieces. Well, not that last one.

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07-25-2003 at 09:15 PM
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mrimer
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No, that should be "Edition of the Architects" :D

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07-25-2003 at 09:16 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Question: Grammar on title screen (0)  
Have we considered just ditching the apostrophe yet? It's usage varies from person to person, there's no common standard, and omitting it entirely is just as valid as fretting over its placement :)

Architects Edition
Architect's Edition
Architects' Edition


Or am I indulging in Architect Sedition? :twak
07-26-2003 at 08:05 AM
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krammer
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
Have we considered just ditching the apostrophe yet? It's usage varies from person to person, there's no common standard, and omitting it entirely is just as valid as fretting over its placement :)

What do you mean, there's no common standard? Singular possessives have an apostrophe before the s, and plurals have an apostrophe after. There has to be an apostrophe, because it's a possessive. It really depends on whether we are counting architect as singular or plural, and having thought about it a bit more, you could go for either, but I still reckon plural. Besides, it must be easier to alter the Announcement on the forum page than the title screen of DROD. ;)

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07-26-2003 at 08:46 AM
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StuartK
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Bugger. Commonly applied standard :D

If in doubt - leave it out. A large percentage of people can be relied on to do so... e.g. try a google on Baldur's Gate, and then Baldurs Gate I suspect the first lot are only in the majority because the original game was spelt that way :D There are other examples, but I'm not going to belabour the point - I'm seriously not trying to make a serious contribution here :P

[Edited by StuartK on 07-26-2003 at 10:43 AM]
07-26-2003 at 11:42 AM
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Sokko
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Eytanz is right about what he said in his last post. Architect's Edition would match up with just about anything you can think of that uses that same grammatical format.

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07-26-2003 at 12:13 PM
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eytanz
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
Bugger. Commonly applied standard :D

If in doubt - leave it out. A large percentage of people can be relied on to do so... e.g. try a google on Baldur's Gate, and then Baldurs Gate I suspect the first lot are only in the majority because the original game was spelt that way :D There are other examples, but I'm not going to belabour the point - I'm seriously not trying to make a serious contribution here :P

[Edited by StuartK on 07-26-2003 at 10:43 AM]


Well, if you do internet searches, you'll also find a lot of people who can't tell "you're" and "your" apart, or spell "lose" "loose", and use words such as "l33t". Many of those people come from non-English speaking backgrounds, and many more have yet to start highschool. I don't think that the internet is where you should be looking to decide what modern language usage is; the standards that apply within it are wildly different than those that apply without.

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07-26-2003 at 12:23 PM
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Oneiromancer
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eytanz wrote:
I don't think that the internet is where you should be looking to decide what modern language usage is; the standards that apply within it are wildly different than those that apply without.


While I agree that the internet is not the place to look for the correct usage of grammar and spelling, just think about how even just the English language has changed over the centuries, and then become very afraid that some of the strange things you see now might be a sign of things to come. All linguistics cares about is what the majority of people use, because then it becomes the only thing that people use a century later.

Game on,

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07-26-2003 at 06:02 PM
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eytanz
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Well... Sort of true. That does apply to me, being a formal linguist, and to many other kinds of linguist that try to abstract away from variation. There are other kinds of linguists, though.

In any case, my point was mainly that the internet is a very bad measure of what the majority of people use. In some regards it is - I do believe that, in American spelling, "loose" may become the accepted spelling of "lose" in a generation or so, as much as that thought annoys me - but in most regards making generalizations based on the internet is a really bad idea; it just doesn't represent any true picture of what is really out there.

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07-26-2003 at 06:09 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Oops, I didn't realize that you were far more qualified than me to hold court on this subject. Carry on.

Game on,

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07-26-2003 at 06:54 PM
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Mattcrampy
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quote:
eytanz wrote:
Well... Sort of true. That does apply to me, being a formal linguist, and to many other kinds of linguist that try to abstract away from variation. There are other kinds of linguists, though.



I have one question.

Split infinitives. Tolerate or burn?

quote:
In any case, my point was mainly that the internet is a very bad measure of what the majority of people use. In some regards it is - I do believe that, in American spelling, "loose" may become the accepted spelling of "lose" in a generation or so, as much as that thought annoys me - but in most regards making generalizations based on the internet is a really bad idea; it just doesn't represent any true picture of what is really out there.


I could never get used to using 'loose' as in what happened to my keys before I got my hooks, but I suppose there are a lot of losers out there, and majority rules when it omes to language.

On the bright side, by the time 'loose' is used instead of 'lose', we'll all be in no position to complain, or even write. In some cases talk.

Matt

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07-27-2003 at 04:14 PM
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