Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
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coppro wrote:
Schik, I strongly suggest modifying it so that if you vote, the following things happen:

You can see the results of that poll ONLY and your other ones don't get voted. Or else just add a Undecided default option that the system ignores. First one is nicer, second one is easier.

Hurry up. This happened last time, and before that, and before that, and...

I second that... ideally allowing voting on each poll individually, so people can do this in their own time without faking polls... but doing it just ONCE with undecideds would get rid of the skewing without revealing anything it shouldn't.

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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
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michthro wrote:
Krishh, don't you think you're being a little unreasonable? I put a lot of effort into my hold, and I did test it very carefully, but everyone makes mistakes. I don't think it's fair to completely ignore everything else. Take 1W in my hold: I thought it was quite a good idea. Does that really count for nothing? So I spoiled it by making a small mistake. Do you honestly feel I might as well have submitted complete garbage? How about the fact that I went to a lot of trouble to use a different non-scripted idea in every room? If I wanted to, I could also make up my own rules and rate you 1 on the grounds that you essentially use the same idea twice (the serpent/roach combination).

And whether a room can be cleared or just one monster killed is irrelevant. If an author made a mistake, it's going to be largely a matter of luck whether the result is "catastrophic" or not.

I think holds should be rated according to various criteria, with flaws being only one of them. So sure, a mistake is a mistake, but I think rating a hold 1 over a mistake is extremely harsh. Have some perspective. There's a lot more to it. Subtract a point or two, but really...

In fact, I have to say I'm disappointed at the lack of sportsmanship displayed in this contest. I don't have to explain to you why my hold doesn't deserve a 1 - you know that, but it suits you to cling to your excuse of "what the contest is all about", which is utter rot. The contest is certainly not all about playtesting.

Btw, if that's how it's going to be then the contest is between BeefRow and Doom, with you third. All other holds are flawed. It's particularly interesting that the other big anti-flaw proponent, NiroZ, submitted a hold in which at least 5 of the 9 rooms are flawed. In three of them you can even continue onto the next room after killing a monster.

Thanks, Doom. The rest of you who agree with NiroZ and Krishh: You should be ashamed of yourselves! Doom, a 17-year old, has more character and sense than the lot of you combined.

Yeah, yeah. I tried counting to ten slowly. Doesn't work.

Waitaminnit...Doom is 17? Wow. Now I'm even more impressed.

In any case, michthro, I can't speak for Krishh, but if I found a room in someone's hold that was clearly designed to prevent killing but had a bug in it that allowed it, well, I'd probably knock of some value, but I don't think that would get it to 1 automatically. It might even end up ranked higher than a flawlessly consistent hold that just wasn't very exciting.

But everyone has their own standards -- one would hope that those voting would behave in an honorable fashion, but that can't be compelled. That said, I suspect that anyone voting a majority of these holds as 1s isn't really operating in the spirit of the contest.

Out of curiosity, what percentage of non-participants vote in these contests? I guess we'll be able to tell by the count at the end of the poll, but I'm wondering if the 20 people who submitted entries will comprise the bulk of the votes, or whether there's a larger pool of people who will play them but weren't able or willing to design a hold of their own.

Josh (a little older than 17)



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Tooth and Nail
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 39
Registered: 04-20-2006
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Heck, Chaco is 12 I beleive, and his hold was one of my favorites. I just finished my voting. Congrats to everyone, this contest was a blast.

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Beef Row
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michthro wrote:
Btw, if that's how it's going to be then the contest is between BeefRow and Doom, with you third. All other holds are flawed. It's particularly interesting that the other big anti-flaw proponent, NiroZ, submitted a hold in which at least 5 of the 9 rooms are flawed. In three of them you can even continue onto the next room after killing a monster.

Tempting as you make that sound....

I'd been assuming that clearable rooms were a malady in only a handful of the easier holds (which were the ones I've played through first), so I've been pretty harsh on them, but if they're that prevalent, I'll reduce the penalties.

Holds that just feel untested and clumsy and have hordes of errors, however, won't get above a 3.

But a little slip in a masterpiece won't hurt that much.

It is funny that NiroZ is one of the strict rating advocates though, considering you not only can clear his rooms, you can clear a room, KILL THE KING, leave, come back and keep going. And you can clear quite a few rooms.

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Beef Row
Level: Smiter
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jbluestein wrote:
Entry 2 (Beef Row): Ouch. Hard hard hard. Stuck on the third room.

A little hint for the third room (Wraithwing Futbol)


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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
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Beef Row wrote:
I'd been assuming that clearable rooms were a malady in only a handful of the easier holds (which were the ones I've played through first), so I've been pretty harsh on them, but if they're that prevalent, I'll reduce the penalties.

Holds that just feel untested and clumsy and have hordes of errors, however, won't get above a 3.

Since I have no illusions about my architecting ability (this having been my first attempt), I don't expect very high ratings. But I am curious as to what people thought, particularly as to whether there have been any errors found in any of my rooms. If you want to give a critique, feel free to PM me if you don't feel like doing it in a public forum. Hopefully I provided something that was, well, not difficult but still conformed to the rules of the contest.

Josh

____________________________
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techant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 854
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See I said that some of you guys were hard to please.

I started with the last one and went up but I havn't made it too far yet. the Nuthouse by tyrion seems good to me so far, nice challeging puzzles. So is "The Race". But I am worried I will not have enough time. So to be fair I would like to see victory demos for all the holds made.

Remember - Mistakes happen when holds are not beta tested and we could not beta test for this contest so I expect some errors. I plan to not count them down too much unless it looks intentionally sloppy (or the maker of the hold is saying they are counting it against others). Last nite laying bed I think I thought of an unintentional solution to one of my rooms I missed . I am not saying which one it is or if it is there cuz then you guys would junp on it and count me down. I just wanted to illistrate a point about beta testing.

I think if everyone could submit victory demos so we can see what the intended solutions were, even if a mistake or two was made it will help us see the quality of the hold.

jbluestein - hang in there. I know it is frustrating. I have felt the same in other contests. Can I see your victory demos?

I have uploaded victory demos earlier in the thread. Also I am not counting the occasional empty room - like entrances - that are there for effect or to make the program understand "you can exit now".

At least one room with no monsters was necessary for the exit to open if you used the blue door feature and you were not allowed to kill any monsters. While I have not seen inside too many holds I do not see how a room or two without monsters is against the rules. The rules said:

1. You are to make a one-floor dungeon with a minimum of 9 rooms that contain at least one killable monster in it, where Beethro can die if he makes the wrong sequence of moves.

That sounded to me like you needed at least 9 rooms with killable monsters once you met that requriement you could have other rooms just for fun.



____________________________
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[Last edited by techant at 05-23-2006 10:20 PM : typo]

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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For your information, the points I will be watching for (ordered by importance):

* every room I have finished (because unfinishable holds is no good)
* every room should following the "do not kill" rule.
* difficulty (hard holds should be encouraged, this is a forum where smart holds are respected)
* fun/story based hold (because I like holds that are fun for me)
* bonus (because I like it, or I like the architect )

Yes, I think it's important that rooms should at least follow the "no kill" rule, but if you made a mistake, well, don't worry about it, I'm sure it will be better next time. (using the Architecture Board would also help - not during contests of course, but for your next hold you can do that...)

-- Tim

PS. And josh, there are at least 2 rooms in your hold that did not follow the rules: 1S1E and 2S2E. But, it is not bad, considering that it is your first hold.

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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
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Tim wrote:
PS. And josh, there are at least 2 rooms in your hold that did not follow the rules: 1S1E and 2S2E. But, it is not bad, considering that it is your first hold.

Thanks! But really...1S1E? Is it possible to kill and escape? Because I didn't think so...

I had my worries about 2S2E -- tried to make sure it wasn't possible, but I think I picked too ambitious a format for a first try without scripting...

Anyway, thanks!
Josh

[EDIT: Ah yes...I see it now. Curses!]
[EDIT: I have posted victory demos in the appropriate topic. Not that I expect anyone to have much trouble figuring them out. ]

____________________________
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[Last edited by jbluestein at 05-24-2006 01:00 AM]

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Alright, you guys are hilarious.

And here's why.


Before the Contest:

"Can we break the rules? Can we? Please? Please? This one? How about this one? Huh? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

Post-contest:

"HOW DARE YOU BEND THE RULES, YOU INFIDEL! YOU SHALL BURN IN THE FIERY PITS OF HADES WHILE CROWS PECK OUT YOUR /VERY EYES/! WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THIS?!"

So, what? Are we all desperate to get something out of the Prize Pile, or is this some sort of elastic guilt reaction after everybody's ridiculous attempts to avoid following the rules in the first place?

Chill out, people, it's a contest, and an experiment in how to make rooms in an interesting manner. Please don't make it a social experiment while we're at it, alright?

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1214
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

I didn't excpect my contest to become such a scandal! Next time I choose a boring one instead!

Seriously guys, Banjooie got it dead on. It's a contest! Let people build what they want, and vote what they want. Is a item from the DROD store worth this much fighting?

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
So, what? Are we all desperate to get something out of the Prize Pile, or is this some sort of elastic guilt reaction after everybody's ridiculous attempts to avoid following the rules in the first place?

I'm not too sure whether it's ridiculous, but it's definitely interesting.

I mean, how hard was it to make an "one-floor dungeon", Banjooie?

-- Tim

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 282
Registered: 06-05-2004
IP: Logged

Michthro: your example is not quite the same, as I would be voting perhaps too harshly on entries breaking the contest rules, even if possibly not the spirit of the contest, you, however, would be voting too harshly on an arbitrary criteria of your choice.

Banjooie: I never asked to bend the rules, and in fact, my 1s only went to holds with a very serious rule-breaking problem in their puzzle rooms, not holds that bend them a little. And no, I am not that concerned about winning this contest, since I knew I wouldn't before I entered it, which I did because I had fun building my hold.

And I might rethink my voting criteria, because 5 of the 6 holds I had placed a 1 on also had other problems, including a lot more rule-breaking than just an oversight, and not being fun. So I might vote a higher mark for holds that have a clearable room, but are otherwise good. And, Michthro, that possibly includes your hold since since I haven't played through it yet.

Jason
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1076
Registered: 05-05-2006
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I'm 11, and I was in first place for a while... now I'm tyed for fourth.

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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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Tim wrote:
I'm not too sure whether it's ridiculous, but it's definitely interesting.

I mean, how hard was it to make an "one-floor dungeon", Banjooie?

-- Tim

Halph never does anything right, does he.

Dumb kid.

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
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Banjooie wrote:

Tim wrote:
I'm not too sure whether it's ridiculous, but it's definitely interesting.

I mean, how hard was it to make an "one-floor dungeon", Banjooie?

-- Tim

Halph never does anything right, does he.

Dumb kid.

Unless his mom is secretly paying him to sabotage Beethro, in a cold-blooded family rivalry. Then Halph may indeed be the most brilliant and devious being ever to walk the dark paths beneath the Eighth. (Wow, Eighth looks weird. Is that even right?)

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
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Schik wrote:

Ostegolectr1c wrote:
Sorry. Undo my vote, as i can see it's pretty unfair to vote myself 10 and everyone else 1.
After i finish all holds, i'll vote properly.

I've unvoted for you. You're free to re-vote when you've finished all of the holds.

NiroZ, though you stated you've done the same intentionally, I'll give you the same offer of unvoting so you can re-vote fairly. I mean seriously... would you really want to win that way?

yeah, might as well unvote me.

in anycase, if all 20 where to vote 1 19 times, and 20 once, it would mean that they all recived the same score, thus anyone else who voted differently would change it by a smaller amount, but it would still change(by a very small amount), right?

I guess I'm just used to the luxury of having a clear set of instructions for the competitions, and this one threw my off in a big way.

techant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 854
Registered: 06-08-2004
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I would still like to see victory demos everyone

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michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Sorry, BeefRow and Doom, but it's only fair that I should mention that your holds have flaws as well. I hadn't played through them yet yesterday. I also forgot that I hadn't played Jason's hold yet, in which it turns out that you can't kill anything and get away with it (albeit mostly by virtue of all monsters being tucked behind arrows or trapdoors). So looks like it's between Krishh and Jason Close call...

The flaws I'm referring to:

I really like the way Doom made the brain in HoP:1S1E open to attack. The safe and sure option would have been to make it inaccessible, but at risk of making a mistake, he adds a little spice by letting you try and get away with killing the brain. This is a good example of why there's so much more to it than not making a little mistake. I much prefer a hold with interesting non-killing contrivances, and puzzle elements on top of that - even if there are some mistakes that can be fixed - than room after room consisting of nothing more than overdone, cheap non-killing techniques, with little or no actual puzzle/skill element.

One more thing:

techant wrote:
Remember - Mistakes happen when holds are not beta tested and we could not beta test for this contest so I expect some errors. I plan to not count them down too much unless it looks intentionally sloppy (or the maker of the hold is saying they are counting it against others). Last nite laying bed I think I thought of an unintentional solution to one of my rooms I missed . I am not saying which one it is or if it is there cuz then you guys would junp on it and count me down. I just wanted to illistrate a point about beta testing.

Very, very true. It is extremely difficult to avoid mistakes. The best way to test is to let others play your hold, which obviously can't be allowed in a contest. Once you've designed a room you tend to only see the intended solution, where someone else could quickly spot an error. It gets even more difficult if your rooms have more to them than the bit where you're stuck if you do kill something. In my 1N1E the mistake came in when I changed the room to try and make it more interesting. Should I have been better off leaving it the way it was? I feel it should mainly be about ideas. So sure, if a hold is riddled with mistakes, and it seems that the author didn't even bother to test, that should be punished. Also if it's the idea itself that simply doesn't work. But when there's just some simple mistake in the implementation of a good idea, it's not such a big deal.

Ok, that's all for now. Thank you if you actually read up to here.

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
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NiroZ wrote:
yeah, might as well unvote me.

Done. Now we're down to one person who has voted almost all 1s - Jason. Jason, if your 1 votes were unintentional, or if it was on purpose but your conscience is getting the better of you, let me know and I'll unvote for you as well.

in anycase, if all 20 where to vote 1 19 times, and 20 once, it would mean that they all recived the same score, thus anyone else who voted differently would change it by a smaller amount, but it would still change(by a very small amount), right?

Sure, but most people will try to win fairly - by rating all of the holds by their merits, not rating them poorly just to try to boost your own chances. If all participants voted 10 for themselves and 1 for everybody else, we might as well make it a rule that they can't vote at all, and let the rest of us non-participants choose the winner.

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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
IP: Logged

Well, I'm into the back half of the entries. I haven't managed to finish all of the earlier ones, although a lot of progress has been made. Some of these are really quite difficult...given time I'm sure I could manage it, but since the polls close in four days, well...

It's really interesting to see what everyone has done in their holds. A compilation hold would be very cool, although I guess you'd have to mark most of the rooms 'uninteresting'.

So far, though:

Dali's and Jason's entries are not completable.
I've actually finished Banjooie's, Chaco's, Muiff's entries.
Beef Row's, Doom's, michthro's and Krishh's I haven't been able to finish yet.

So working on NiroZ's entry right now.

But mostly, having fun! Great contest idea, Ezlo!



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Krishh
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 282
Registered: 06-05-2004
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michthro wrote:
So looks like it's between Krishh and Jason Close call...

Shucks, I was this close to winning by default , but Jason's hold has 9 accesable rooms, and the rules don't say the hold must conquerable. (and there's the whole "these rules are not set in stone" rule, but let's not spoil the moment)

Considering these circumstances, I will vote a bit more leniently, but this is a bit funny.

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
IP: Logged

By the way, if these entries all do get turned into a compilation hold, it would be cool if people were given a chance to correct any mistakes prior to publishing...



____________________________
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Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1214
Registered: 01-08-2006
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Go right ahead! The only thing that bothers me is that I have to reset all the staircases, but that won't be too bad.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
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Once again, I think someone claimed somewhere there was a possible monster-kill in my hold? Can I get a confirmation on that?

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
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I'm pretty sure there are no monster-kills unless you count the one in 2N with the Slayer...

Also, not a monster-kill, but you can skip the puzzle in 3N1E with the mimic.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged

I wouldn't count too strongly for minor flaws because none of these holds got the debugging-through-Arch-forum we expect of holds on the Holds board.



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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

You know the sad part?

I told myself, when I put that down 'Put trapdoors around the orb so they don't just mimic it.'

And I did.

Some time later, while I'm neatening everything up, I tell myself

'What, that seemingly random bunch of trapdoors around that orb looks ugly. SHAZAM, DISAPPEAR, FOUL SCUM.'



Marketing and design teams ruin everything, y'see.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:
Once again, I think someone claimed somewhere there was a possible monster-kill in my hold? Can I get a confirmation on that?

In 2N1E you can kill a tar baby and exit N (or W). If you're on the E end of the door with your sword SW as you kill it, the guards don't get you. You can also kill the Slayer and exit W.

Beef Row
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 471
Registered: 12-28-2005
IP: Logged

michthro wrote:
Sorry, BeefRow and Doom, but it's only fair that I should mention that your holds have flaws as well.

Click here to view the secret text

×Ahimsa:Empathy:Ent: You can kill a snake.

Hmmm, I checked the scripting and it works fine for all the monsters, so I assume you



I'd be interested in a demo of this.

____________________________
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