forrestfire
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 93
Registered: 06-05-2005
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To improve my scores, I was playing through Beethro and the Secret Society: The Entrance Halls, when I noticed something really weird. I had a 70 move demo on 3 south, but when I watched it, I died on move 45. It said that the demo was corrupted or else from an earlier version of DROD. I think that when I played through it the first time, I had version 2.0.13 and now I have 2.0.14.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like the demo system just records the keystrokes and plays them back to you. So if the game logic changes, it could cause a player death or a failure to complete a room. I'm not really sure what the change in game logic 2.0.14 is, but I think it's the reason my demo is now impossible.

This raises the question, are changes in game logic supposed to render a highscore impossible, or are highscores supposed to be accepted as long as they were possible at the time they were made?

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coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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Isn't that what the HS Spider is for? It does use certain improvements to game logic. Schik, does the spider recheck all *valid* demos when the logic changes? However, it does implement logic in advance from when patches are made.

AlefBet
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 979
Registered: 07-16-2003
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The Caravel team makes an effort to avoid changes in game logic, unless it's to fix behavior that was clearly a bug. Unfortunately, when logic changes do occur, that renders those high scores invalid, and they'll probably be removed the next time the spider checks the demo. As unfortunate as that is for the scores that are affected, I think it's the right choice, though. If a bug results in a (say) 10 move high score for a room and then after the bug fix the optimal solution is 15 moves, it's rather unsporting to have a demo that is impossible to even tie with as a high score (especially when new players play through the demo and find that it's invalid).

I don't believe there were any game logic changes in 2.0.14, though. OTOH there were a few regarding pathmaps and other odd cases in 2.0.13. Also, game logic changes are not the only thing that can render a demo invalid. The most common other cause (I believe) is an update to the hold by the author. In that situation, it's even more common (IMHO) that invalid demos should be removed, if the hold update was to cure an unintended solution. And, from the spider's POV, there's not an easy way to tell the difference between these two cases, even if it were important to do so.

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coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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Well, can't/doesn't the spider keep a seperate copy of each hold and then treat it like DROD does, asking CaravelNet whether it has been updated?

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Generally the spider runs in a "Only verify demos marked as needed to be verified" mode. Demos that need to be verified are:
- New, never verified demos, either from normal play or batch uploading
- All demos from holds that have been updated

When there are logic changes in the game, I put the spider into "Continually verify the demo that most needs it" mode. Demos need verification in this order:
- Previously existing demos that were marked because of a hold update
- Demos that have been batch uploaded
- Demos uploaded during normal play
- The demo that hasn't been verified in the longest amount of time

Those orderings are from memory, so they could be slightly wrong.

We've got enough highscores saved now... almost 400,000... that it takes the spider quite a while to re-verify ALL of the existing demos. So I especially appreciate the Caravel team not changing the behavior on us very frequently.

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Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3516
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Schik wrote:
We've got enough highscores saved now... almost 400,000... that it takes the spider quite a while to re-verify ALL of the existing demos.

DistributedCaravel.Net Spider@Home NOW!

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michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Hang on. I know there's been some changes to scripting, which explains why Syntax's demo for Idiot's Castle:Main Hall:3N2W no longer works (the roaches are released one move later under 2.0.14), but from forrestfire's demo for BatSS:Entrance Halls:3S there's definitely something wrong somewhere. There's no scripting, Halph behaves the same way, but the (brained) tar babies are behaving differently.

stanski
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 03-21-2006
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A lot of the scripting elements in war7 are causing corrupt demos as well. I have counted at least 5 sections where the demo's are not playing correctly.

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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This is weird. It is the presence of Halph that makes the difference in BatSS:Entrance Halls:3S after all. Something changed between 2.0.12 and 2.0.14. The only explanation I can think of is that the difference lies in whether Halph is considered an obstacle by the pathmap code. Was this an intentional change?

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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Yes. Halph had behavioral troubles with brains and now they know to avoid him. After all, they definitely know he's there (JtRH L13, remember?).

michthro
Level: Smitemaestro
Rank Points: 679
Registered: 05-01-2005
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Ahh.. so goblins are smarter than me, eh? I forget all about JtRH:L13, and they remember.

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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It's a plotline thing. Just ask the Goblin King.

I won't spoil it, but hey!, we all know that monsters don't hurt Halph...

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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michthro wrote:
This is weird. It is the presence of Halph that makes the difference in BatSS:Entrance Halls:3S after all. Something changed between 2.0.12 and 2.0.14. The only explanation I can think of is that the difference lies in whether Halph is considered an obstacle by the pathmap code. Was this an intentional change?

That's right -- when Halph is preplaced in a room, that tile used to be marked as a brain pathmap obstacle...even if Halph later moves off that square. This is incorrect -- now that tile doesn't get marked as a pathmap obstacle. A similar problem occurred with bombs -- when a bomb explodes, its tile used to not be unmarked as a brain pathmap obstacle. Now the tile is correctly marked as not an obstacle to pathmaps once the bomb explodes.

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
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