michthro
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You're probably right, but it's not really made clear. A good trapdoor puzzle can be seen as a good non-killing puzzle. Anyway, it's just that I happened to think of this great trapdoor/orb puzzle I'd have liked to work in. aaarrgggghhh...

Tooth and Nail
Level: Delver
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I've begun work on my entry and its proving to be more difficult than I had originally thought. I finished my scirpting work but I keep finding ways to get away with killing my "unkillable monsters". Tar is a particularly hard medium to work with givin its random nature. Tar babies are created too easily, and its hard to account for each possible outcome. Think I have to give it up for tonight, I see the sun beginning to rise over the trees.
Delve on!

____________________________
GIR: GIR, reporting for duty!


Zim: GIR? What does the 'g' stand for?


GIR: I don't know!

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[Last edited by Tooth and Nail at 05-07-2006 10:53 AM]

Ezlo
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You can add a trapdoor and orb puzzle in your entry, even if the monster is behind a force arrow. Just make sure Beethro can't kill it or else he's trapped. You might get horrible votes for it, but that's your choice.

Remember everyone, you can have more than nine rooms if you want.

michthro
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Ok, I'll leave it then. And my first question? And Tim's question about anonimity?

Ezlo
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Your first question I won't allow. You shouldn't be able to leave the room after killing a monster. And I don't see Tim's question. Where is it?

michthro
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If that's your ruling, fine, I'll accept it. However, I feel it's unreasonable of you. If exiting a room after killing a monster causes a situation where the hold can't be completed, or is equivalent to restoring, I don't see the problem.
Tim's question can be found by doing Tim the honour of reading his posts.

silver
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oh, great. I thought it would be neat to have the second-to-last room be the only marked "required", and have blue doors in the final room, and if you actually DID the second-to-last room, then the blue doors would be dropped, and... you'd die painfully. darn ever changing rules.



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[Last edited by silver at 05-07-2006 01:10 PM]

michthro
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That's a beautiful idea, silver, killed by the rules on two counts. The not exiting after killing rule of course, but also this:

:
I understood that a main rating criteria will be how good is the not killing things part incorporated into the puzzle.

With your idea, there's no actual "not killing" part to the last room, since it's trivial to not kill anything if they're stuck behind blue doors, yet it's a very nifty indirect way to ensure no killing.

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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Come now, michthro. It's not like everyone will vote you a 1 if you make a room like that. It might at worst not count as one of the minimum 9 rooms required, but it's still a good room idea. Remember that it will players that vote on the holds, and if it's a fun idea, and silvers idea definetly seems fun, it will get good votes.

And I too don't understand the no leaving room rules. (Though I don't buy the just like a restore excuse. That's silly. Just restore.) But if you leaving a room after killing something mans that you can't complete the the hold, I can't see why this shouldn't be allowed.

I think a good criteria would be this: it must be impossible to record a continuous demo from the beginning to the exit stairs which involves a death.

coppro
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Wait. Does every room need a monster?

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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Yes, at least 9 rooms must contain at least one moster that you can kill, but can't really. You can, however, build more than 9 rooms, in which case some can be monsterless.

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[Last edited by Krishh at 05-07-2006 05:13 PM]

coppro
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OK. Hmm. I already have one puzzle that will get scrapped, and the official Most Evil Halph Maze Ever Invented (TM). Trust me, you'll want to kill me.

michthro
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Krishh wrote:
And I too don't understand the no leaving room rules. (Though I don't buy the just like a restore excuse. That's silly. Just restore.)

I think a good criteria would be this: it must be impossible to record a continuous demo from the beginning to the exit stairs which involves a death.

Consider a room like this: There's an entrance, an exit, and a roach. The exit is the only way to progress to the next room. The puzzle part is getting past the roach without killing it. If you do kill it, some contraption makes it impossible to go through the exit. So, kill the roach, and you have to restore or, equivalently, leave through the entrance and come right back. The result is exactly the same, but technically the rules don't allow you to leave the room. You see the difference, under the rules, between leaving and restoring? Of course you can just restore, but you don't have to. There is an invalid continuous demo that it's silly to consider invalid.

Ezlo
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Okay, I like Krish's idea a lot! A whole lot. I think that's the new ruling on what is allowed. And I would also apreciate when people send in there entries, send in a full level demo as well, that way I can see it. A lot of these rooms seem impossible to puny-minded me.

michthro
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*groan* Ezlo, did you even bother to read what I posted? Krishh's idea falls down on not allowing room leaves that are equivalent to restores. Please think about the example I gave.

Krishh
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Actually, it less falls down on that, and more was made exactly to prevent that. Although, Ezlo, I think that making demos a requirement is a bit harsh. Besidies, after the 20th, you'll be able to ask for hints. Well, actually, you might do that now, asking to the authors.

Doom
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Krishh wrote:
Actually, it less falls down on that, and more was made exactly to prevent that.

That depends on what kind of demos you mean.

If you're talking about one long continous demo from entrance to the exit, you could enter a room, kill a monster and re-enter it after that. (Which doesn't fit the rules)

If you meant a set of playthrough-demos for every room (also easier to record = better), I don't see killing monsters as a problem if you'll have to restart or go back to the room entrance afterwards in order to proceed further.

silver
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michthro wrote:
That's a beautiful idea, silver, killed by the rules on two counts. The not exiting after killing rule of course, but also this:

:
I understood that a main rating criteria will be how good is the not killing things part incorporated into the puzzle.

With your idea, there's no actual "not killing" part to the last room, since it's trivial to not kill anything if they're stuck behind blue doors, yet it's a very nifty indirect way to ensure no killing.

"3. If Beethro kills a single monster in any room, Beethro must then become trapped and have to restart and/or undo."

since you'd have to restore to the previous room and re-do it without killing the roach, it succeeds under the rules.

and nowhere did I say that "inevitable death from the monters behind the blue doors" would be the ONLY thing in the last room. there could still be a puzzle where you have to avoid killing something which is in place provided the blue doors are UP.


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Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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I do not advocate actually having to record demos, since that s a lenghty and cumbersome procedure to do manually for each room or, worse, for the entire level. It's just that I do see a problem with going back through the entrance to proceed, and as such, a hyphotetical full level demo including such behaviour should not be possible, in my opinion. However, I see that the general consensus is that this is ok too, and it's not really that big of a deal.

silver
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I never heard anyone say that, Krish. That it would be part of a successful victory. I just heard people saying that "kill monster == cannot end hold" could mean "things could get so bad that you have to start all the way over"


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Krishh
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What I mean is that if you kill a monster, going back to the previous room and reentering should not be a viable option in my opinion. Michthro and Doom think otherwise. This has nothing to do with your idea, which seems to go perfectly by the rules.

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[Last edited by Krishh at 05-07-2006 06:47 PM]

michthro
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silver, I was critisising the rules, not your idea. I meant it when I said it's a beautiful idea. I know that it satisfies the original wording of rule 3, but it was always clear that Ezlo meant 'r'estoring, and he removed any doubt by saying no to any kind of room exit. I thought that was what you were responding to. As for there being more to it than monsters behind doors, so much better. I was making the point that the basic idea alone is very good and shouldn't be disallowed.

Krishh, you're missing the point somewhere if you want to explicitly prevent room exits that are equivalent to restores. The idea is most certainly not to allow going back through the entrance to proceed, but to allow going back through the entrance if it means no progress is made.

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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I understood that they are fully equivalent to restores the first time you said it, michthro. However, it still doesn't fell right to me. Killing a monster not counting because, due to the way DROD is built, the monster technically doesn't die doesn't make it any less of killing a monster in my eyes.

Ezlo's the guy to argue with about this anyway.

michthro
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Ok, just one more argument. The spirit of this contest is: Design rooms with a puzzle element revolving around not being able to make any progress once something dies. When you start picking the rules apart, all sorts of technicalities are going to come up. Why disallow rooms that fit in with the spirit of the contest on the grounds of some technicality? You wouldn't happen to be a lawyer, would you?

silver
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I was about to post something similar, mich, but directed at Ezlo. Right about now Ezlo is probably thinking, "gee, running a contest is hard, so many questions about the rules making me wonder if I have to rethink them all the time, and then complaints if I change the rules based on questions, there's just no satisfying people!"

but had he answered all questions in the first place with, "look the spirit of the contest is this: you have the option (maybe even the desire) to kill things. but if something dies, you can't finish the hold. technicalities are for weenies. be creative." he would have found the whole affair much easier


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[Last edited by silver at 05-07-2006 07:39 PM]

ErikH2000
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I'm not saying everybody's suggestions are off-base, but having run these contests before, I know it is often impossible to get the rules so they'll make everyone happy. Go easy on Ezlo, and if he has proposed some rules that only make you 10% unhappy, maybe just let it go. On the other hand, if you think the contest is doomed to not be fun, then it makes perfect sense to be constructively critical. Let's not get quagmired.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

michthro
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Spot on, silver.
Things are looking a lot more complicated than they are though, what with the arguments over technicalities, so Ezlo shouldn't worry. Best thing to do is keep it simple, and go with what you said. I would just change "can't finish the hold" to "can't make any progress", to ensure that the issue I've been discussing with Krishh doesn't arise. Although, after all this, I think I'll play it safe and just put arrows in entrances where necessary, much as I hate that.

Banjooie
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All I'm going to say is that I'm having a hell of a time scripting it so something besides Beethro can safely kill things, but not Beethro himself. And it saddens me.

Ezlo
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Okay, spirit of the law is that exactly what Silver said, technicalitys stink, but now you know have to judge each entry on how well it followed the spirit of the law. THERE! EVERYONE IS HAPPY!

And if you're not: I'M NOT LISTENING!! LA LA LA LA LA!

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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NOOO 0000000 0000000 0000000
now i have to redo my hold .

The one thing i find annoying about this new rule is that it makes the holds more inflexible.

If you were to allow people to make holds where beethro can't exit a room, then you are resticting the options of architects, where as if you allow it, you are not incoveinecing anyone, and giving more options.
Besides, people like me will have to redo their holds, thus rendering us at a disadvantage.