NoahT
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Hi!

I was just thinking about an idea I made up at the music camp mentioned in the Anything board: Dungeons and Dragons, DROD style! There could be some sort of new interactive DROD game to get this idea to work between forum members.

-Noah

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agaricus5
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I've never heard of "Dungeons and Dragons" before until now. Could you please explain it to me?

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krammer
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D&D is one of those Games Workshop RPG type things, I believe. Although I don't play it and don't know anyone who does, so I can't tell you much more than that...

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Oneiromancer
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Dungeons and Dragons has been around since 1973 or so. It was originally published by TSR, Inc., and is now published by Wizards of the Coast. The Revised 3rd edition ("3.5") was just released last week.

Basically, if you have played any fantasy role-playing video or computer game, it was probably inspired in some way by D&D. Some more than others, obviously, but along with Tolkien it is the main inspiration for RPGs.

Game on,

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Scott
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Advanced Dungeons and Dragons

This is a pen and paper game role playing game.


Shick/Erik this post belongs in anything not development.

NoahT
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Scott wrote:
Shick/Erik this post belongs in anything not development.

The reason I put this in the "Development" board was because I was thinking of my idea as being new DROD software. Just for your information.

-Noah

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ErikH2000
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NoahT wrote:
Hi!

I was just thinking about an idea I made up at the music camp mentioned in the Anything board: Dungeons and Dragons, DROD style! There could be some sort of new interactive DROD game to get this idea to work between forum members.

-Noah

Noah, I would like some day to have a paper-based DROD roleplaying game, although I don't know if it will ever happen. I think it would require much more investment in the story. For a good RPG, you need a rich world that supports a unique and enjoyable gaming experience. As it is, I think the offering is pretty sparse. I do have a friend who is a publisher of some well-respected RPGs with much experience in the industry. If I ever get to a point where I can make a convincing proposition to him, well... let's just say there are possibilities.

If you are a fan of D&D, one thing that might be interesting for a campaign: use DROD to handle combat. For your campaign, use conventional gaming techniques to get across the story. When your players get into combat, pull out a chessboard or maybe a larger grid drawn on paper and some pieces to represent players and their adversaries. Put the pieces on the board, possibly in some pre-conceived tricky arrangement of your own devising, and let players move according to the rules of DROD. As the game master, (I hate to say "dungeon master" since TSR/Hasbro is so unreasonable about use of their trademarked phrases) you would direct the actions of the monsters.

To do this, you'd have to throw out or change a lot of the traditional D&D rules that apply to combat, but I'm pretty sure an enjoyable system could be made.

-Erik

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Mister
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Bah, just make all monsters have 1 HP, poor AC, excellent THAC0, and insane damage

Scott
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You can still miss with a roll of 1

Oneiromancer
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This post is very timely for me as I just finished DMing an adventure not 5 minutes ago, using the new "3.5" edition (just the revised 3rd edition). Anyway, I thought I should mention to Mister that 3rd edition gets rid of THAC0 and actually uses a reasonable system, with an AC that counts up from 10 and you just add your attack bonus and try to match or beat the AC. Much more intuitive.

Anyway, I think that doing DROD D&D would only be interesting for occasional puzzle-style combats and not for an entire basis of a rules system.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Mister
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It's a long time since I last played AD&D; 3rd edition didn't existed back then. Of course, I know the new rules, but second edition will remain in my mind as "THE" AD&D

Scott wrote:
You can still miss with a roll of 1

Ok, just dismiss that rule

Krishh
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I would rather see a DROD tactical RPG, possibly with less RPG and more tactics, to stay true to the puzzle-ish nature of DROD. Basically, 2 groups of units fight each other in DROD rooms. Complete with dungeon elements like crumbly walls, force arrows, trap doors, and even orbs and yellow doors (I could see some truly evil applications for this one). You could even introduce monters who attack the nearest units , regardless of team. Also possibly, you could have the units move multiple tiles each turn, this could make the game better, but ruin the DRODness of it.

Hotseat support would be a must, and Online play would be bliss. SIngle player would unfortunately require some sophisticated A.I.

The biggest problem I can see is Eighth's lack of possible units:

1. The Delver/Smitemaster - moves exactly like Beethro, complete with sword swinging. If units move multiple tiles, would move a bit more then the average unit.

2... ...

Some ideas could be someone who can control a monster, or a guard carrying a huge shield, or an apprentice architect who could modify the rooms in some ways.

joker5
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0.o *Drools at the possibilities* Even with smiters only... how about you can buy any of the other units using the bounty you get from smiting monsters + enemies? Single player could be against monsters only... maybe a 'potion dispenser' who dispenses the two potions? This would be SOOO cool.

Multi-player could be played on one computer, as long as invisibility potions are scrapped or the other person looks away...

This could be kinda like the X-com series.

~joker5

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Krishh
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I just landed down on Earth and realized that this would be way too complicated to create by anyone but perhaps Caravel itself. (Hint, hint?) It would be almost immposibble without DROD itself as a base, since so many elements would stay the same, and you would still need to add a huge amont of things for it work.

joker5
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*puts it in the closet marked 'Pipe Dreams'*

I doubt Erik and the gang are going to do this, despite how cool it would be. Maybe he'd delegate it, though...

The story might be something like this...

"The order of the Eighth has finally cracked. The Anti-Smiters have come up from the bottom of the Eighth. They smite all who get in their way using big foam-padded swords. The only way to defeat them is to whack right back. Their armor seems impervious to sharp objects, so the best our troops are equipt with right now is big wooden clubs and other blunt instruments. They seem capable but reluctant to leave the dungeons, but the governments of the Eighth don't know how long this will last. We need to get rid of these beings now!

In other news, our Smiters have reached the bottoms of some dungeons! Many report a curious gravity-flipping effect, and some have found doors to some kind of 'outside'. They've been reasonlessly beset by Anti-Smiters. We seem to have found their source. We need to defeat them before they defeat us!"

Later on, we could add 'monsters' as another group as kinda a pirate clan. People could join the monsters. They attack both sides for money but can be 'bought' or payed bounties for certain territories or something... maybe their special ability is to be able to attack anywhere in the dungeon levels unless the entire dungeon is controlled by one group... They'd need permission to move through controlled territories to anywhere but the underground, though...

Obviously, each side would have its own abilities and units. If we were to have a special lobby it would probably be like 3 maps: Dungeons that reach all the way through, the kingdoms of the Eighth, and the Modgniks of the Hthgie. I'm kinda picturing a raging war on both sides, and the maps would update every like five minutes as to how far the Eighth, the Hthgie, and the monsters have spread and where they've conquered and where battles are going on. That would be sweet. I'd pay at least 10$ a month to play that if it was implemented properly. People would pick a level of a dungeon or a county of a Kingdom or a ytnuoc of a Modgnik to battle and the most recent winner would decide what color it is...

There's just so much that could be done with this. If you advertized well you could do ANYTHING with this, and you've already got a playerbase. I'm sure I wouldn't mind beta-testing.

I just went on a ramble, didn't I?

~joker5


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mrimer
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Krishh wrote:
I just landed down on Earth and realized that this would be way too complicated to create by anyone but perhaps Caravel itself. (Hint, hint?) It would be almost immposibble without DROD itself as a base, since so many elements would stay the same, and you would still need to add a huge amont of things for it work.

We're thinking about some ideas like this. As you know, the biggest obstacle to multi-player DROD game playing goodness is how to effectively deal with turn taking. Strongly discouraged is making people wait for other players to take turns so that everyone stays synchronized. Also discouraged is forcing everyone to make turns at the speed of the fastest player (i.e. default wait moves are made for the person who didn't punch in their move in time). I've got a system in planning that would fix these issues for co-op, but nothing satisfactory yet for competitive play.

Another issue to deal with is what happens when someone dies or restarts. Does that player just disappear? Does everyone restart? (That would make me mad if other people kept restarting me.) Do players just respawn at starting spots when killed/restarting?

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Krishh
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I was thinking more along the lines of each player controling a whole group of units and the turn order being one of these:

1. Player 1 controls all his units, in what order he pleases (he selects the unit he wants to move), then player 2 does the same. Repeat.

2. Each unit type has unique speed, equal units move order is chosen randomly during the first round, and stays that way for the rest of the fight.

If more then one player moved at the same time, it would get at least somewhat real-ime and real-time DROD :

To Joker:

That would be an MMO game. I think that an MMO DROD would be stretching it a bit.

[Edited by Krishh on 06-12-2004 at 05:52 PM GMT]

joker5
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Nonono, you wouldn't have 3 or more players at once except in the case of with monsters. The whole thing is just a pretty picture that changes. And determines where you can fight. But not with who(unless it's decided that you need to get where you've fighting first... egh.). See, I figured we needed a little comradery or else the person with the most money and who's been there the longest always wins, right? But like this you can support each other, and the clan grows. But since we want person vs person, we can't just have the Smitemaster's Guild, nor can we just have country vs. country because then we'd get these little places at the edges which don't do squat and 2 or 3 major powers battling it out in the middle of the Eighth. The only way to avoid that is to have a large power come from somewhere else. Then I realized that there's absolutely no good reason for there not to be an 'antiworld' on the other side of the Eighth. Also, this makes it more complex but not too confusing. You've got 2 sides, each of which has some but not too many unique capabilities. It's not like it'd be major battlefields with 10 people playing, that's just silly. But there would be an element of groups involved, because that just adds to the fun.

~joker5

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Krishh
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The idea of a MMO campaign for it is quite cool, but I don't think that the person with the most money and who's been there the longest would always win, since my idea is that the game depends more on tactics, and and less on the stuff you can buy. Also, you should still be able have quick battles outside of the campaign, in case you for example wanted to battle in a user-made room. ( if this game is made, the editor shouldn't be hard to implement in it)

joker5
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Yeah, that's why you implement lan games with smaller maps and so forth. That would actually be pretty cool, with user-designed kingdoms and stuff. Still, Caravel is far far too busy with other stuff to bother so I guess we'll just have to keep pestering about 1.7.

~joker5

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Criminals, like other people, dislike being shot. ~FBI study on guns

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Schik
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Well, the full source for 1.6 is out there for anyone else to get and modify into a new RPG type of game. Just because it's a DROD-derived game doesn't mean Caravel has to be officially involved. If anyone is up to starting such a project, I'd be happy to answer any questions regarding the code that I can. And those that I can't, I'll just ask Mike.


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Watcher
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Krishh wrote:
The biggest problem I can see is Eighth's lack of possible units:

1. The Delver/Smitemaster - moves exactly like Beethro, complete with sword swinging. If units move multiple tiles, would move a bit more then the average unit.

2... ...

Some ideas could be someone who can control a monster, or a guard carrying a huge shield, or an apprentice architect who could modify the rooms in some ways.

I won't be the one to carry this project through, but if anyone wants to have a go at it, here are some suggestions for units:

Exterminator: Like Krishh said, slightly faster than average and armed with a really big sword. Can kill any monster that can be damaged with a sword in one hit. (Here I'm assuming that there will be some sort of damage and hit points system, so that generally, things don't die from one hit.)

Guard, melee: Armed with a sword and a shield. Slower than the Exterminator and not as good with a sword, so would often use multiple hits to kill a monster. The cannon fodder of the game.

Guard, ranged: Armed with a bow and a dagger. Same speed as the melee Guard, and is able to shoot arrows at monsters. Has only a dagger and no shield for melee combat, so very bad defense, and low damage in melee.

Architect: Armed with a dagger and a shield similar to the ones used by guards. Same speed and defense as the melee Guard, and same melee damage as the ranged Guard. Capable of triggering any orb within a range of 5 squares.

Worker: Fastest unit, due to prior experience with dungeons. Armed with an axe that is a bit more powerful than a melee Guard's sword, but has no shield. Capable of crossing trapdoors without releasing them.

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masonjason
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mrimer wrote:

Krishh wrote:
I just landed down on Earth and realized that this would be way too complicated to create by anyone but perhaps Caravel itself. (Hint, hint?) It would be almost immposibble without DROD itself as a base, since so many elements would stay the same, and you would still need to add a huge amont of things for it work.

We're thinking about some ideas like this. As you know, the biggest obstacle to multi-player DROD game playing goodness is how to effectively deal with turn taking. Strongly discouraged is making people wait for other players to take turns so that everyone stays synchronized. Also discouraged is forcing everyone to make turns at the speed of the fastest player (i.e. default wait moves are made for the person who didn't punch in their move in time). I've got a system in planning that would fix these issues for co-op, but nothing satisfactory yet for competitive play.

Another issue to deal with is what happens when someone dies or restarts. Does that player just disappear? Does everyone restart? (That would make me mad if other people kept restarting me.) Do players just respawn at starting spots when killed/restarting?

Wow. Does this mean we're likely to have multiplayer DROD in the future?

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ErikH2000
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joker5 wrote:
*puts it in the closet marked 'Pipe Dreams'*

I doubt Erik and the gang are going to do this, despite how cool it would be. Maybe he'd delegate it, though...

Don't be saying we aren't going to do things when we might do them! You don't know!

I don't like to speculate too far ahead, but Mike and I agree that we want more multi-player aspects to future game releases. It's smart to take advantage of our incredibly-active user community. So we are taking small steps in that direction now.

Also in the speculative department: Deep7 games has expressed some interest in a paper-based DROD RPG. We would have to invest some serious time we don't have now to develop it, and it's possible they wouldn't be so hip on the idea once we got to that point. But there's a fair chance that some time in the future, you and your buddies could gather around a table and make up character sheets, roll dice, and all that role-playing stuff in an Eighth RPG experience.

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
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Zmann
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Multiplayer DROD would be amazing.