Snicker
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 30
Registered: 07-07-2003
IP: Logged

Okay - we've got about a half-dozen architects now, I think it's a good time for this.

Since most of us don't financially support the development of DROD, and we all seem to enjoy it, we should give something back to Erik and Mike, etc. As they continue to work on the release of DROD AE, I would like to see us create a collaborative union to design and publish one complete (30-50 levels) dungeon to be released with DROD AE, using the best of our levels. Let's face it, most of us only have 3-5 good levels in us, and rather than create a bunch of small holds, why not combine efforts into one mega-hold? The final bonus to this uberhold would be that at the end, the victor could gain editing rights to help them learn to make their own holds (leaving DD "locked").
Each author of a particular level (or all of them if there are multiple) would be credited, so newer players are aware that these are fan-created levels.

I've seen great stuff from Sam and Tim and Eytan and Oneiromancer. Actually, nearly every hold I've seen so far has stuff I'd like to see in one big hold...

If there's enough interest (6 or more architects), I'd like to ask the board-owner (that's Mike, right?) to give us separate forum for design work, to help us stay organized and focused. I think 6 or more people can build enough to have a 30-50 level dungeon done in a month.

So what do you think? Who's interested?

krammer
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 904
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

Hmmm. I like the idea a lot, and I see no reason why we don't use existing levels, although we would need to alter names, descriptions etc.

And someone would need to co-ordinate the thing and organise it all on their hard drive. better still have 2 people in case one suffers data loss and everyone gets upset.

See what others think, but I'm willing for my stuff to go in. Whether I can design much of quality remains to be seen...

Anyway I'm rambling. In short, yes, I'm interested.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Sounds interesting...

However, I'd still rather be making a hold of my own at the same time, so I probably won't be adding levels I've already used to it. Nevertheless, if there's anything I can do, ask me.

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billbuckner
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 57
Registered: 05-03-2003
IP: Logged

Count me in. I'm working on a few levels myself right now, and think it would be best to have a "Community chest" of levels.

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Actually, it should be pretty easy, since you can have stairs go between holds, right?

Possibly the best choice is to wait for a little longer, and then collect rooms that are similarly themed into levels, instead of making each level copied from someone else's hold. This is probably what you had in mind anyway. Personally, I don't mind doing this too much, since I don't think I will have the time or patience to make an entire dungeon, but a few rooms every now and then is fine.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

butsam
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 114
Registered: 05-20-2003
IP: Logged

Count me in. Any holds (or rooms from holds) that I post here in the General area, including Sam's Puzzles (all versions), can be considered contributions to the cause.

All we need now are about 5 people to vote on rooms--I'd be willing to elect myself to this position! (LOL) Seriously, with about 5 people deciding what rooms to be included, then you eliminate possible bias of one person, and it would make the hold varied. OK maybe 5 is too many, but at least 3 people (and definitely an odd number so there are no tie votes).

The 3 people have to have passed DROD in order to be elected (which I have done), and have a willingness to play a bunch of rooms. There should also be submissions to this cause (probably in its own post), as some people (including myself) post a preliminary IDEA before making a killer room out of it.

I like the idea of only one person assembling, however. It avoids some conflict. Of course, that person solicits ideas, and would HAVE to regularly post the current layout of the hold on this board (say, once a weekish), so if there is a crash or the like we don't lose it all. Two people would probably lead to different ideas in hold designs and impede the process, but suggestions can by offered by anyone.

How does that sound? Structured, and each individual is not overwhelmed with a vast amount of time, and there is at least not one person's opinion in how to proceed.

I would be willing to help out in any of these capacities, or just go on my way making some more levels, but this seems like a good structure.

Sam

[Edited by butsam on 07-11-2003 at 09:32 PM]

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1721
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I'm fine with the whole thing. If you need me, ask me. I don't know if I'll be able to contribute too much, but I'm for it. And that "room judge" thing sounds nifty...

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Scott
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 578
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

I'm willing to help. But after seeing the amazing job people are doing I can't think any rooms I would make being either interesting or tricky. But I could help test and judge rooms and put them into a big hold if thats what we want to do.

bdcribbs
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 390
Registered: 04-08-2003
IP: Logged

Scott wrote:
I'm willing to help. But after seeing the amazing job people are doing I can't think any rooms I would make being either interesting or tricky.

After playing (or trying to) the holds that have been offered so far I understand what you are saying. Interesting and tricky sort of depend on what you've already been through. I've so far only completely solved one of the new player made holds. They are all tricky (I'm not complaining), but I think it is definitely worthwhile to release puzzles at all skill levels. Interesting puzzles can be made that are "easy". (Remember back on level one when you kept dieing...)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

True, but right now the main audience for our holds are the "masters" of DROD. Later, after the final version is done and the masses are enlightened, it will make more sense to make easier holds for those who get too frustrated at Dugan's.

Also, I think a lot of people assume that you're not going to play a user-made hold until you do beat Dugan's, so it is acceptable to make hard levels. A false assumption to be sure, but right now most of the main posters and testers have beaten it so it is temporarily true.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Sokko
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 336
Registered: 02-25-2003
IP: Logged

Sounds spiffy, put me down for "Put-Together Person"! I'd be perfectly willing to pack everyone's levels into the mega-hold, and post layouts. Assuming we'll have an Import Level function before long. Plus, I have the added bonus of easily noticing spelling and grammar errors. Rock on!

Lemme know if I could do that. Please? With a cherry on top?

[Edited by Sokko on 07-12-2003 at 04:35 PM GMT: Whoops, browser bugged out.]

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mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I just wanted to say that this sounds like a neat project you all are working on!

The way to import levels is to import the hold the level is in, then copy the level by selecting it in the level list and pressing Ctrl-C to copy, then selecting the new hold and pressing Ctrl-V to paste. This will copy the entire level over into the new hold. The only thing to check up on at the end is that the stairways are all linked up from one level to the next as they should be.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Count me in. I don't have much time to devote to this at the moment, and in two weeks I'll be leaving for Europe and won't have a stable internet connection (or a computer to rub DROD on, for that matter) for a month, so it might be a bit difficult for me to actually do anything before September, but I like the idea in principle.

Feel free to use the rooms in Blorn for anything you want to. The second hold I've released is still being worked on (it's much larger now), and its rooms have been redistributed over several levels (no, I didn't split the interlocking ones ), so at the moment I'd prefer no-one to include that level as it is in anything.

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I got my avatar back! Yay!

Sokko
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 336
Registered: 02-25-2003
IP: Logged

The way to import levels is to import the hold the level is in, then copy the level by selecting it in the level list and pressing Ctrl-C to copy, then selecting the new hold and pressing Ctrl-V to paste. This will copy the entire level over into the new hold.

Ahh, that would make sense. So then I guess we can start as soon as we squash enough annoying bugs! <takes out extendable hammer>

(If you got that, you're automatically my friend)

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How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?

Sokko
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 336
Registered: 02-25-2003
IP: Logged

P.S. My current collection of dungeons (i.e. everything there is) includes:

Bavato's Dungeon
The Old Sewers of Blorn
Clancy's Basement
Claythro Tower
Eytan's Nameless Hold
King Tim's Dungeons
Ricky's Dungeon
Sam's Puzzles
The Dreaming
Dinfro Budkin's Wine Cellars

Note that this list excludes holds that were created primarily for the purpose of testing strange properties, etc. Such as the "Dead tar" hold. Please let me know if I missed anything.

[Edited by Sokko on 07-13-2003 at 04:22 PM]

____________________________
How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Leave out Bavato's Dungeon for the time being because I've got something planned for it, and would rather leave it as my own hold. However, when this project does get started up, I'll be happy to submit any ideas I have that I haven't used or do not need to use for Bavato's Dungeon.

Sorry about that.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Scott
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 578
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

I haven't made any holds myself but what people have made can't be considered to be public material available for use in a project like this unless they specfically say thats how they want said hold used.

trick
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2580
Registered: 04-12-2003
IP: Logged

I'd like to be part of this sometime. Gotta get the linux version up and running first, tho.

- Gerry

Sokko
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 336
Registered: 02-25-2003
IP: Logged

Leave out Bavato's Dungeon for the time being

Sure, no problem. I was just making a quick list of all the holds people have put up so far, and wasn't including the authors' willingness to contribute. Heh, when you put it that way it sounds really selfish somehow.

____________________________
How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

I'd like to refine my rooms more, of course, before I submit them. So don't bother taking mine until I offer them. Thanks.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Quath
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 17
Registered: 06-20-2003
IP: Logged

I would be interested. I am designing a hold now of about 6 levels with about 2 levels done. The levels are kind of small with about 6 rooms each.

So I may better contribute by putting my best rooms together into a larger level for the Collaboration.

Quath

Snicker
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 30
Registered: 07-07-2003
IP: Logged

Clancy's Basement is not a good level by itself. While the rooms are interesting enough, and the theme is a fun one, the rooms themselves, I think, are too different in style - especially as a single level.

That being said, I'd like to donate my levels, and also to work on the overall theming. Yeah - theming... That thing that makes the scrolls an interesting read, and the reason some rooms are just darned cool to look at.

So once Sokko has collected sufficient levels to start working on something, I think it'd be a good idea for the people who want to do more than design levels to get together and talk (chat room, phone calls, something).

I don't suppose you're in Houston?

Sokko
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 336
Registered: 02-25-2003
IP: Logged

I think maybe we should have a separate post, like "Levels for Collaboration", and have people post attachments of stuff they want in it there. That way there's no hemming and hawing around, people submit only what they want to see in there.

In fact, I'll go do that now. Attach anything you'd like to see in the DMDOD*, and I'll stash it in my stash until there's enough for the mash, and we can slash their bugs that make DROD crash. And maybe later on, when there's actually something of substance, there can be a post to complain about the layout of the hold or anything else that needs to be changed. In a flash.

Is DMDOD fun to say out loud or what?




* Deadly Mega-Dungeon of Death (sounds intimidating!)

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How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Not to put a damper on things, but shouldn't we wait until we're out of beta? Because you just know that there are going to be more issues, and I think it is best to have everyone exporting their holds from the same final version, etc. It might be enough just to keep this collaboration in mind when designing levels, so people can make sure to set aside rooms for this dungeon. I, for one, have put a hold on my level-designing until the exporting/importing bugs are fully worked out. I am probably in the minority here, but that's how I feel.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Snicker
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 30
Registered: 07-07-2003
IP: Logged

I'd keep designing, Dreamer. Just do it one level at a time - that way you can still test ideas and concepts and get feedback, but don't lose a bunch of work if something explodes.

Sokko - let's talk themes

krammer
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 904
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

Just had a thought - if this is going to be such a massive hold, ordering levels is going to take time. I suggest a warp level where the player starts. Each staircase in the warp level will take him to levels by a different author, or if you prefer, a different level. Scrolls can be used to indicate where the stairs lead. Then when he completes the level, he returns to the warp room.

This gives the player a bit more freedom, particularly as this is meant to be a collaboration. Anyone else agree? Or is a linear hold better?

____________________________
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"Oook!"

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
Registered: 02-10-2003
IP: Logged

I've got a few ideas I still want to try and add to my 'Impossible Cubes' levels, so I want to hold onto to that one for now.

But I'm also working on a few levels for some nephews of mine who enjoy DROD but they haven't made it past level 4 (they're only 10 or 11 years old). The rooms so far are light on puzzles, but have some fun smiting and some rooms might be interesting additions to the early levels of the hold. I don't plan to have it completed until after the beta test is done, but I'd be more than willing to let you use them for this collaboration when they are finished.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Quath
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 17
Registered: 06-20-2003
IP: Logged

The entire collaboration does not have to be one big dungeon. It could also be a series of adventures. The last room of each hold could just have stairs that points to a new hold. (It doesn't seem we need to have one huge hold file in case some of the levels are tweaked.)

We would just need a message showing the transition from one hold to the next. Maybe it could encompass an overall nice story.

Quath

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

That sounds like a good idea. (You could always have each next hold accessable only by a stairway coming from the end of the last hold -- you know, by having a dummy floor that doesn't go anywhere at the entrance -- but that's basically as hard as having all the levels in a single hold. Multiple holds are probably more convenient for the player.)

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
Not to put a damper on things, but shouldn't we wait until we're out of beta?

Yeah, that's what I thought. I had no idea people would be so willing to put up with all the data loss and other troubles we've had so far. But I guess things are settling down to an acceptable level of risk. A few warnings for the peoples:

1. If you hit a bad bug that destroys all your data, you will either have to accept the loss or help the developers figure out the cause of the problem. During beta you should expect that our main goal will be fixing bugs and not recovering your data. In some cases we have done both simultaneously, but other times people just lost their data and had to start from scratch.

2. There are precautions described in my "Testers Please" post found at the top of the "Bugs" board that can be used to avoid data loss.

3. I could really use some help testing multi-author holds. It might be good for a few people involved in the "dungeon collaboration" project to throw together some holds with levels from different authors. I mean *before* the big official hold which would probably arrive after beta was complete anyhow. This would help us find bugs that tend to come up in collaboration projects.

-Erik

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 07-16-2003 at 08:31 PM]

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