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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : The Descent of King Hesper (Progression from beginner to expert)
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Author Name:Team Eclipsical
Submitted By:Nuntar
Hold Name:The Descent of King Hesper
Theme:Progression from beginner to expert
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:146
Number of Rooms:2480
Number of Monsters:19547
Version:DROD: The Second Sky (5.0.2)
High Scores:View High Scores
Hold Karma:42 (+42 / -0)
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File: The Descent of King Hesper.hold (10.2 MB)
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 icon The Descent of King Hesper  
Welcome to The Descent of King Hesper!

This hold is the culmination of ten years of work by a team of 45 architects, testers, writers, spriters and programmers. It grew from the "Entry Point" forum topic, in which it was suggested that a new hold should be made that would allow DROD newcomers to learn about all the elements in the game. This is what we came up with.

This is not a "tutorial hold". It is a puzzle hold in a similar style to the official holds, introducing (usually) one game element per level, in tiers similar to GatEB so the player usually has some choice about where to go, and can leave a level and go elsewhere if they get stuck. (And because DROD has a lot of elements, this means the hold ended up with quite a lot of levels!) It starts out at a beginner level, but the design assumes the player will develop their skills as they progress through the tiers, and will be ready to tackle quite advanced puzzles by the end. As is traditional, even harder content is available in secret rooms and optional areas throughout.

This hold uses the following custom room styles: Basalt, BlueBricks, Garden, InFlamesRock, Mosaic Frost, Sandstone. If you have CaravelNet, these will automatically be installed when you download the hold. If not, get them here to enjoy the full experience!

We are enormously grateful to everyone who contributed to this project throughout the long development process, and to the DROD community as a whole for waiting patiently and cheering us on. We wouldn't have made it without all of you.
12-26-2024 at 09:21 AM
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Nuntar
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 icon Re: The Descent of King Hesper (+6)  
We hope everyone is enjoying our hold! :thumbsup In case anyone is curious about who made your favourite (and least favourite) rooms... well, you've probably noticed that the hold credits each level to its main architect. But that's not the whole story. Through the long development process, a lot of people contributed rooms to each other's levels, so I've kept a list in case you wanted to know about any specific room.

I've used the notation "by X (ed. Y)" when the version we went with was substantially edited by another architect; of course there were many small edits along the way and there was no point in attempting to track all of these.

The list will reveal the names of levels, so only look if you don't mind seeing these. Secret levels are listed in a spoiler within the spoiler.

Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-26-2024 09:38 PM]
12-26-2024 at 09:34 PM
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kikuchiyo
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 icon Re: The Descent of King Hesper (+1)  
When does the story happen, relative to the main holds?

Is it considered a canonical addition to Beethro's story, or rather an alternative timeline?

Or should I just keep playing to get the answers?
12-26-2024 at 10:16 PM
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Nuntar
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In between KDD and JtRH, closer to the latter. That's why the Silent Woods intro text says: "Beethro Budkin was glad of the solitude. Sooner or later, he would have to return to Dugandy, sort things out with the Smitemasters' Guild, and decide on the best thing to say to Halph to dissuade him from a career as a dungeon exterminator."

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12-26-2024 at 11:31 PM
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azb
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This is one awesome hold! I love how clever all the puzzles are without relying on too much tedious monster movement order or something similar like a lot of TSS puzzles did, just clever lynchpins JtRH or later GatEB style.
12-27-2024 at 01:00 AM
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Drodroo
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Thanks very much!
12-27-2024 at 12:25 PM
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Chaco
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I can highly recommend this hold! It's very polished and pretty, and there's a good story to the hold too - plenty of neat details for players to go looking for, but keeps a good pacing too.

You should play the hold yourself if you can, but if you already got a decent way into the hold (or you're one of the hold architects), I've started a commentated series of the hold that you can watch:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPJnHh-qd0aAxii8eSUDC93BYooHwUJXx

So, you can see how a series veteran looks at rooms, analyzes them, and solves them.

This is a big hold so I expect it will take me quite a long time to finish it up! But I'm definitely looking forward to seeing all of it.

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
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12-27-2024 at 02:16 PM
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azb
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Awesome! Not only is it helpful for people struggling, but it also helps understand the thought process behind the work, whereas asking for help on Hints and Solutions doesn't reveal what the thought process was, only the solution.
12-27-2024 at 02:39 PM
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JamesBond007
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I always thought Entry Point will be a Smitemaster's Selection, requiring money to purchase.
12-30-2024 at 10:57 PM
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Kalin
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Chaco wrote:
You should play the hold yourself if you can, but if you already got a decent way into the hold (or you're one of the hold architects), I've started a commentated series of the hold that you can watch
Can you put the level names in the video descriptions? I would help us tell if you're covering something we haven't done ourselves yet.

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12-31-2024 at 01:09 PM
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Chaco
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Kalin wrote:
Chaco wrote:
You should play the hold yourself if you can, but if you already got a decent way into the hold (or you're one of the hold architects), I've started a commentated series of the hold that you can watch
Can you put the level names in the video descriptions? I would help us tell if you're covering something we haven't done ourselves yet.

I'm of two minds about this kind of thing - on the one hand, it does provide this info at a glance to the user, before they even start watching the video. On the other hand sometimes it could be a spoiler as to whether I manage to solve "the tricky room" this episode, and thus start another room or level, or if it turns out I'm stumped and "the tricky room" needs to last another episode.

To contrast, when I'm reviewing contest entries it's more of a given from the very beginning that I've solved everything so depending on the situation (and particularly whether I was putting multiple entries in one episode), I might add individual room timestamps to those kinds of videos.

If YouTube supported spoiler tags in the video description then that's where I'd put room timestamps, but in lieu of that I simply don't add it.

The video thumbnail and whatever room/level I start Beethro in at the start of an episode is usually hint enough about what rooms I'll be solving today without being an outright spoiler.

I recognize that this hold is kind of a special case in terms of having both linear progression and mixtures of multiple architects' rooms in the same level, though. The format of the videos (text and para-text) is always experimental and subject to change.

Ultimately the best "spoiler protection" to be sure viewers have already seen the room/level I'm working on, is for them to have played a good distance ahead of me and be sure that they've solved all this stuff already.

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12-31-2024 at 01:41 PM
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Kalin
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It's ultimately your decision.

I don't consider the time it takes you to solve a room to be a spoiler... you are a very experienced smitemaster, and will frequently solve tricky rooms very quickly. And sometimes a room that I solve quickly might take you longer because you're explaining and analyzing it thoroughly.

Also, I didn't ask for room timestamps, just level names. YouTube may not have spoiler tags, but it does put in cut tags after about 1.5 lines of the description (at least when I view it on my PC).

I finished chapter 1 before watching any of your videos, but had to pause and do an optional level when I realized I missed it and you were about to start it.

This is a very nonlinear hold and, um, this might be a bit of a spoiler even for you...
** potential spoiler deleted **

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[Last edited by Kalin at 12-31-2024 09:05 PM]
12-31-2024 at 04:20 PM
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kieranmillar
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I don't recommend putting level names in youtube titles. If people want to avoid spoilers, they can simply not watch the videos, but what you can't avoid is the Youtube algorithm deciding to serve you up a spoilery video title. The algorithm is notorious for spoiling things, especially in a world where people want to drive clicks to their video by saying the spoilery thing.

The name of a level can be a spoiler! Either because the name directly hints where it is, or merely it showing up chronologically in the video order between levels you already knew about, that's a big hint you missed something.

Wanting to watch someone's playthrough but also avoid spoilers is a fool's errand. Spoilers can show up at any time. The only thing you can do is complete the hold yourself first, then go back and watch the videos. They'll still be there, waiting for you.
12-31-2024 at 05:21 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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Kalin wrote:
this might be a bit of a spoiler even for you...
Click here to view the secret text

Pro tip: if you think it might be a spoiler, then it's a spoiler. Why would you even post this?

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12-31-2024 at 05:34 PM
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Kalin
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kieranmillar wrote:
Wanting to watch someone's playthrough but also avoid spoilers is a fool's errand. Spoilers can show up at any time.
True, especially for secret rooms I've missed.

The only thing you can do is complete the hold yourself first, then go back and watch the videos. They'll still be there, waiting for you.
That's good advice for tiny holds, but I like to watch videos when my own efforts are fresh in my mind, and this hold may take me a couple years to finish.

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12-31-2024 at 09:17 PM
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dhill12
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Just started, finished tutorial and one level (except for one rather tough secret room -- maybe later).

Pretty good so far. Honest, does what it says on the tin.

Recommended. Good work guys!:D

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01-03-2025 at 11:14 PM
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grackle
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Good puzzles, and the progression of difficulty makes this feel like a full DROD release. Very impressive.
01-07-2025 at 06:59 PM
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TripleM
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Nuntar - just wanted to say that this room was beautiful - not hard, but just so satisfying (will put in secret tag since it was listed as a secret level above):
Click here to view the secret text



[Last edited by TripleM at 01-10-2025 08:32 AM]
01-10-2025 at 08:32 AM
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Nuntar
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Thank you! I feel we struck the right balance with that room: trivial solutions were prevented, but one particular unintended solution kept coming back, and instead of fighting it tooth and nail, I made it just tricky enough that it should feel like a valid alternative solution rather than a break. Seems to have worked!

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01-10-2025 at 12:31 PM
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Kalin
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Do we have a term for "secret room only accessible by doing the previous room the hard way"? I'm using "challenge-locked secret" in my head, but they're not technically challenges.

Maybe "skill-locked secret" would be good.

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01-14-2025 at 04:14 PM
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wisprabbit
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I'm really enjoying this hold so far. I just want to quickly shout out one secret room in Chapter 5, because I completely bit on the misdirection and I laughed out loud when I realised what I actually needed to do.

Click here to view the secret text


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01-18-2025 at 11:59 AM
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Kalin
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Chaco wrote:
This is a big hold so I expect it will take me quite a long time to finish it up! But I'm definitely looking forward to seeing all of it.
Are you done streaming, or will you do some more later?

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01-21-2025 at 06:14 PM
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Chaco
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Kalin wrote:
Chaco wrote:
This is a big hold so I expect it will take me quite a long time to finish it up! But I'm definitely looking forward to seeing all of it.
Are you done streaming, or will you do some more later?

I'm not streaming any of the gameplay live; it's commentated live-as-I-play-it, but I record the footage, edit it and upload it in a queue. Fortunately I haven't had to really cut anything or do a fast-forward montage etc., at least not yet.

I'll probably be starting Chapter 3 this weekend.

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01-21-2025 at 07:42 PM
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dhill12
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Anybody offering hints? I've reached and/or cleared 10 levels and run out of rooms to clear. I can see blue blocks in 2 levels, but no idea how to clear them.

I've been avoiding the streamed solution, but maybe it's my only hope?

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02-03-2025 at 12:40 PM
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Nuntar
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Which levels? Blue doors drop when you have solved all required (red on the mini-map) rooms on that level. If you think you've got all required rooms and the blue door hasn't dropped, it can only mean that you missed a room. (This hold will never do anything as nasty as having a required room that's only accessible from a different level.)

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02-03-2025 at 04:24 PM
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kikuchiyo
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Now that I've finished chapter 5 (according to my stats page, I've completed 872 / 1922 rooms, which is more rooms than the next largest hold, TSS, has in total), perhaps it's time for a preliminiary review. Then again, I haven't seen King Hesper yet nor do I know why and where he is descending, so maybe this is going to be a premature rather than preliminary review.

If I were to summarize my impressions of this hold in one word, it would be *overwhelming*. Room after room, level after level, secret levels opening from secret rooms, secret rooms in secret levels, tokens, keycards (two kinds, so far) and a lot of lore. In a sense, this hold and the effort that went into it represent the pinnacle of human achievement - admittedly, "making a DROD hold" is a very narrow, specific niche of achievement, but within this niche it very likely maxes out what is possible. It is almost certain, at least, that nothing of this scale will ever be attempted again.

In more grounded terms, this is an excellent hold and for the most part I'm having a great time with it. Apart from a few stumpers where I had to look for help and a few rooms in the citizen level I didn't care about at all, it was a mostly a smooth ride. There are many good rooms, recent standouts include Searing Depths 5S1E (where the room cheerfully directs the player onto not one but two false starts), but there were many, many more.

One aspect I'm not a fan of is the aggressive use of lightning effects in some levels - some are so dark that I've ended up switching off alpha blending altogether.

A -- still not severe, but -- more serious criticism I have is that the difficulty curve is somewhat uneven. I've read in the original Entry Point thread that difficulty was intended to grow in a linear fashion, with each chapter adding one brains worth of difficulty - I've found that in the final product, this is markedly not the case. Perhaps my brain scale is miscalibrated
Click here to view the secret text
, but some of the levels were much harder or easier than their surroundings. For example, Riptide Currents (the platform level) was in chapter 2, but some of its rooms already felt like 6 brains, while Pulsating Crater (the brain level) came much later, yet it felt like 4 brains or so. Some particular rooms stand out even more: Botanical Gardens 2W is at least a 7, but possibly a 8 brain room if you consider the secret access.

This kind of unevenness is perhaps unavoidable in a collaborative hold like this, and it's not a deal breaker, but it means that one has to approach the hold with the appropriate expectations and be prepared for some speed bumps along the way.
02-06-2025 at 10:34 PM
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Nuntar
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Thanks for the review. I feel I should point out: it is absolutely intentional that the optional content in each chapter can be much harder than the main content. If you try to get all the optional content on your first pass, then levels will feel more uneven because some of them have more of it than others. "Exam" levels like Botanical Gardens are generally pitched at a higher level than the rest of their chapters, but to compensate, you only have to clear half the rooms to pass them.

Which is not to say that I think the difficulty curve is perfect. Riptide Currents in particular is probably still too hard for its place if you ignore the optional content, mostly because compared to the first draft, we already did a ton of work toning it down, and at some point we got tired and wanted to move on.

There are also some deliberate breather levels in the later chapters because we didn't want the player to have an unending slog through our hardest content.

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02-07-2025 at 01:49 AM
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Kogefet
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I am pretty new to DROD, started playing it almost 2 years ago. I've already mastered GatEB, KDD 2.0, JtRH, TCB and conquered almost 300 rooms of TSS... But TSS was getting a little bit too hard for me in some of the places so I've decided to look up some holds made by the community, just to see if there's something a little bit easier for me to play when I get stuck in another TSS room. I wasn't expecting that THIS hold is what I'll find here... As of right now I've only finished the first chapter and I'm already loving it. So yeah, just wanted to thank all the people that worked on this hold for 10 years. I didn't expect that "Entry Point" progress bar was representing the development of this massive hold and that it wasn't just some kind of "Smitemastery 101 2.0" but with all the mechanics from all 5 games. Just amazing!

I understand that most of DROD community is gathered here, on this forum, but still, I think it would be really great if you'd make some kind of announcement/community post about this hold on steam (Maybe other places too? I'm not sure how it works on gog). Can't believe how easy it is to miss the existence of this hold! Well... For newer players, at least. I only found it because I noticed that "Entry Point" progress bar has disappeared so I wanted to check what it is and if it's finished already.
[Last edited by Kogefet at 02-09-2025 04:55 PM]
02-09-2025 at 04:37 PM
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mrimer
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Kogefet wrote:
I think it would be really great if you'd make some kind of announcement/community post about this hold on steam
Great idea. Thanks for suggesting it. Done!

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I am Gandalf the White. And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
02-16-2025 at 08:13 PM
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kikuchiyo
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I'm at chapter 6, playing with the intention of finding and completing all secrets as early as possible, but looking at Pearls' latest video I see that I'm missing an item
Click here to view the secret text


Can I get a hint for its whereabouts?

By the way there is one aspect I've forgotten to praise in the review above:
I very much like the complete traversability of the hold. I'm pretty much free to go everywhere, on the levels themselves, between the levels in the hubs, and between the hubs in the Fork of Infinity. A lot of thought must have gone into this, and it shows. I prefer to play through DROD holds in order, in one save file, and this open architecture makes that possible.
02-22-2025 at 04:02 PM
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