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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Museum of themes (Linchpin, manipulation, and horde)
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Red-XIII
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Hello everyone!

Finally, after 8 years in the making, I managed to complete this hold! The idea came to me when I wanted to describe the game of Drod, and the answer I gave myself was roughly "it is a game where the quintessential puzzles are linchpins, manipulation, and horde management".
In this hold there are 6 levels (48 puzzles in total):
- 2 are about horde rooms (both old and new school puzzles, where a strategy should be required and be interesting for those who want to optimize).
- 2 are about linchpin puzzles, where I tried to make "eureka" type of puzzles and try some obscure ideas I had.
- 2 are about manipulating monsters (one room was built back in 2013!) and trying to figure out how to maneuver them.

For each theme there is a relatively easy-medium level (I'd say 5-7 brains) and a tougher level (I'd say 7-9 brains). You only need to complete the easy-medium level to conquer the hold and all of the rooms to master it. Every rooms is accessible from the start.

I am really scared that there might be room-breaking solutions, so I ask for your help and some feedback! In particular, I am still unsure about some rooms, I put some scrolls in those rooms to remind myself and to ask you testers your opinions.
In addition, maybe some linchpin rooms could be considered manipulation rooms and vice versa, since you need some specific trick to maneuver them (in some rooms). Thus, I ask your opinion about this as well, without telling you the rooms yet, so that you can elaborate without any influence.

What to do:
Hold submitted

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 10-15-2024 07:14 PM]
04-03-2024 at 10:49 PM
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Kalin
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This hold may be beyond my skill level; I've only managed three rooms so far.

Obey your master:
Click here to view the secret text


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04-04-2024 at 01:43 AM
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Obey Your Master:
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No time right now for the rest, but it looks great so far!
04-04-2024 at 05:09 AM
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Kalin
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Someone Else wrote:
Obey Your Master:
Click here to view the secret text
1S1E
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04-04-2024 at 12:54 PM
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Red-XIII
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Thank you for playing it!

Kalin, nice finding!
Click here to view the secret text


Someone else, your comment for 1S1E makes me wonder if that room really belongs to manipulation or linchpin. As Kalin suggested
Click here to view the secret text


I uploaded a new version with the US fixes and new checkpoint placement.


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04-04-2024 at 09:24 PM
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Kalin
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icon Re: Museum of themes (+1)  
I only managed half of OYM, so I decided to look for low-hanging fruit in the other levels. I cleared the west half of Ah! without too much trouble.

Ah!1W
Click here to view the secret text

Ah!1S1W
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Ah!2S1W, 2S2W
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Ah!2S
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04-05-2024 at 01:39 AM
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Red-XIII
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It looks like you are breaking many rooms, which is great! However, I cannot seem to reproduce some of them, could you send me the demos please?

For Ah! 2S, I'll consider switching the room with OYM 1S1E.

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04-05-2024 at 11:18 AM
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Kalin
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File: Mot Ah 1W Victory.demo (6.2 KB)
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Ah!2S
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Ah!1W demo attached
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Ah! east side... it seems I'm better at lynchpins than manipulations.

Ah!2S1E
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Ah!1S1E
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Ah!1S - stumped
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Ah!1E - US
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04-05-2024 at 04:15 PM
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Red-XIII
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I immediately uploaded a new version because for some reason Ah! 1S had closed green doors instead of open. Sorry about that.

I fixed (hopefully) the US in Ah! 1E.

I completely modified Ah! 2S, 1W, and added a similar puzzle in 1N1W.
Which do do you prefer more? 1W, 1N1W, or both?

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-33th Skywatcher

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-05-2024 08:25 PM]
04-05-2024 at 05:41 PM
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Kalin
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File: Museum of themes.demo (18.4 KB)
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icon Re: Museum of themes (+2)  
Demos so far: half of Obey, all of Ah!, half of Eureka.

Ah!1W
Click here to view the secret text


Ah!1E
Click here to view the secret text


Eureka:1N
Click here to view the secret text


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04-06-2024 at 04:06 AM
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Red-XIII
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Wow, you broke so many rooms!

Eureka!
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Ah!
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Obey your master
Click here to view the secret text


Thank you for finding these US!

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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 05-30-2024 07:06 PM]
04-06-2024 at 03:44 PM
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Kalin
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File: Museum of themes.demo (24.8 KB)
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Red-XIII wrote:
Wow, you broke so many rooms!
And you broke so many demos! I was so excited this morning because I was ready to upload demos for all the rooms in those three levels, and when I got online you had already updated the hold.

Anyway this demo set should have everything for Obey, Ah, and Eureka except Ah:1E and Eureka:1E. I even did the challenge in Obey:1N1E.

I took a peek at the easy horde level and I think you'll need to have someone else test those. After I figure out the 1E's I'll look at the harder manipulation level; I'm more likely to find ways to cheat on that one.

Ah:2S
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Eureka:1S1E
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EDIT: Added demo for Ah:1E. Still stumped on Eureka:1E.

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[Last edited by Kalin at 04-07-2024 05:00 PM : Updated demo]
04-07-2024 at 01:43 AM
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Red-XIII
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File: Mot Eureka 1S1E Victory.demo (3.2 KB)
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Again, so many broke rooms!

Eureka!
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Ah!
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04-07-2024 at 07:18 PM
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Kalin
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File: Museum of themes.demo (25.7 KB)
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icon Re: Museum of themes (+1)  
I believe these demos include all the revised rooms plus the challenges.

Eureka:1S1E
I overcomplicate things? Your demo is nearly twice as long! :P
Click here to view the secret text

Eureka:1E (full spoilers)
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Eureka:1N
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Eureka:1W
I like it when levels have a couple easier rooms near the entrance. Maybe swap it with Ah:1E?

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04-08-2024 at 12:46 AM
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Red-XIII
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That's the third time you break Eureka 1N! No, that is not intended :~( now this has become a personal thing for me ahah I dare you to break it again :P
If that was intended, why would you say it is based on a bug?

1S1W: while this is still a cool solution, I'd like to enforce my linchpin, so I fixed it, hopefully.
2W: again, close to the intended solution but not quite, fixed it.
1S1E: not sure what you mean actually, as far as I understand, once you are far enough from temporal projection, monsters will follow you, whether they are brained or not.
1E: I attached a demo with my solution. Sorry, I did mean putting the stalwarts in separate traps. Also:
Click here to view the secret text


The game will say the demo is from another version, but it still works. I recorded it when there was no disarm token, which does not affect my solution.

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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-08-2024 06:30 PM]
04-08-2024 at 06:29 PM
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Kalin
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Red-XIII wrote:
That's the third time you break Eureka 1N! No, that is not intended :~( now this has become a personal thing for me ahah I dare you to break it again :P
If that was intended, why would you say it is based on a bug?
I'm sure I saw that behavior discussed on the Bugs board, though obviously it wasn't changed since then.

1S1E: not sure what you mean actually, as far as I understand, once you are far enough from temporal projection, monsters will follow you, whether they are brained or not.
In your demo starting at move 394, the west eyes act unbrained while targeting the timeclone.
EDIT: Checking old threads and doing some experiments, I see that brains ignore timeclones if they can see the active player. Distance doesn't matter.

EDIT2:
I think I've finally done what you want in 1N, but I may still be breaking 2W. 1S1W will need more thought.

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[Last edited by Kalin at 04-09-2024 02:14 AM]
04-08-2024 at 09:14 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Museum of themes (+1)  
Since you've done some serious testing for me, I'd like to at least try to return the favor.

Attached is my demo file; so far I've attempted "Obey your master". A few comments:

Click here to view the secret text


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04-09-2024 at 01:58 AM
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Red-XIII
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Thank you both!

Eureka!
Click here to view the secret text


Obey you master
Click here to view the secret text


Obey your master, 1S: for both Kalin and Xindaris.
Click here to view the secret text



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There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-13-2024 05:32 PM]
04-09-2024 at 08:42 PM
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Red-XIII wrote: you are the second tester that got stumped, which means I have to move the room to Ah!

I would advise against doing this, because it would immediately give away that there is a trick involved, which in such a simple room as this, also pretty much gives away what the trick is.

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04-09-2024 at 09:44 PM
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Kalin
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Red-XIII wrote: Obey:1N1W: you used the same setup as Kalin, which is different but easier (?) than mine! So I added a challenge for my solution.
I don't see the challenge scroll.

Obey:1N
Did Xindaris' challenge.

Eureka:2W
Is this what you wanted?

Eureka:1S1W
Not having any luck with all these oremites.

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04-10-2024 at 04:37 PM
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Red-XIII
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Nuntar wrote:
I would advise against doing this, because it would immediately give away that there is a trick involved, which in such a simple room as this, also pretty much gives away what the trick is.

That's actually a pretty good point, thanks for the advice.

Kalin, yes, that is what I intended for Eureka 2W! (though I inverted the use of the constructs and the trapdoor maze, but this doesn't matter.
About 1N1W:
Click here to view the secret text


Not sure why you don't see the scroll (obey your master, 1N1W). I uploaded the hold again just to be sure.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-10-2024 07:26 PM]
04-10-2024 at 07:25 PM
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Kalin
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Red-XIII wrote: Not sure why you don't see the scroll (obey your master, 1N1W). I uploaded the hold again just to be sure.
Scroll is visible now, and solved.

And after a LOT of work I've solved (broken?) the latest version of Eureka:1S1W.

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04-12-2024 at 03:09 AM
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Red-XIII
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Kalin wrote:
Red-XIII wrote: Not sure why you don't see the scroll (obey your master, 1N1W). I uploaded the hold again just to be sure.

And after a LOT of work I've solved (broken?) the latest version of Eureka:1S1W.

I don't even know how to describe what you did (aside from terrific) but yes, not in a million years I could have intended that.
Hopefully fixed, I cannot have the player think that he has to do that absurd manipulation and exploit movement order, since it is not the main point of the room.

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04-12-2024 at 04:26 PM
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Xindaris
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Tried some more rooms. I'm basically proceeding through the levels from west to east in the hub. You'll find some "not quite solution" demos of rooms I couldn't figure out, manually recorded, in the attached file besides my actual solutions.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-13-2024 04:15 PM]
04-13-2024 at 03:59 AM
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Red-XIII
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Xindaris wrote:
Click here to view the secret text

Obey your master
Click here to view the secret text


Master of puppets:
Click here to view the secret text


Ah!
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I also switched Eureka 1W with Ah! 1E.
Added a challenge for Master of puppets 1E.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-13-2024 10:18 PM]
04-13-2024 at 06:18 PM
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Kalin
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Eureka:1S1W
I think I finally found your solution.
Click here to view the secret text

Then I imported your latest version and went to redo my demos for the swapped rooms and found that I lost a LOT of demos. Everything on Eureka except 1S1W and 1S1E, about half of Ah, and a couple demos on Obey and Against.

Anyway, I think I have full demos now for Obey, Ah, and Eureka including challenges.

Master:1N
Pretty easy because I've done this kind of puzzle outside of DROD (skell's Trans Neuronica is a complex example).
Click here to view the secret text
The normal version of this puzzle often requires covering the entire field with paths, so I'm tempted to make my own version with red gates (and no constructs).

Master:1S1W
Click here to view the secret text

Against:2S1E
Standard brained queen room; exactly what I would expect to see in an "easy" horde level.

Against:2S2E
Another straightforward room made tedious by 18(!) constructs. I lost my demo for this, and I'm really unhappy about that.

Against:2S
Basic brained skipper room, the goblins barely made any difference.



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04-15-2024 at 10:08 PM
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Red-XIII
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Kalin wrote:
Eureka:1S1W
I think I finally found your solution.
Click here to view the secret text

Then I imported your latest version and went to redo my demos for the swapped rooms and found that I lost a LOT of demos. Everything on Eureka except 1S1W and 1S1E, about half of Ah, and a couple demos on Obey and Against.

Anyway, I think I have full demos now for Obey, Ah, and Eureka including challenges.

Master:1N
Pretty easy because I've done this kind of puzzle outside of DROD (skell's Trans Neuronica is a complex example).
Click here to view the secret text
The normal version of this puzzle often requires covering the entire field with paths, so I'm tempted to make my own version with red gates (and no constructs).

Master:1S1W
Click here to view the secret text

Against:2S1E
Standard brained queen room; exactly what I would expect to see in an "easy" horde level.

Against:2S2E
Another straightforward room made tedious by 18(!) constructs. I lost my demo for this, and I'm really unhappy about that.

Against:2S
Basic brained skipper room, the goblins barely made any difference.


I will post an update in the following days.

Eureka:1S1W, yes, that is what I intended.

MoP
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AtW
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04-16-2024 at 08:33 PM
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Kalin
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Trying to get back to this.

Master:1E
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04-28-2024 at 02:54 AM
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Xindaris
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Played a little bit today.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-29-2024 05:38 PM]
04-29-2024 at 05:35 PM
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azb
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I like this hold, and the rooms are always very well thought out without being too tedious, like some rooms in JtRH level 23 were or again, Beethro's Teacher is always an infamous example for those who play it.

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