bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
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Here is a thread for creating a compilation the "Architectural Bad Habits: Backtracking" contest.

A non-anonymized version of the hold used for the contest voting will appear in the next post.

Links:

Contest topic

Voting topic

My plans:

1. Reorder the rooms in reverse contest ranking order.

2. Add some contest host notes about each entry.

3. De-anonymize the scrolls by the entrances.

4. Maybe make the hub prettier.

Requests from others:

Entry authors:

- Please make sure your level appears correctly in the hold.

- Provide author's notes to be placed in the hub, if you want.

- Mention modifications you want made to the entry if necessary. I guess adding checkpoints and challenges would be okay. Other changes would probably have to be considered with regard to the general rule that the compilation entries should be similar to the contest entries.

Xindaris:

- Since I haven't completed your entry yet, I might need demos and a description of the collection of information in the level.

Anyone:

- Ideas for improving the hub would be appreciated.

- As would regular testing of the hold.

HA:

- Guidance about (eventually) promoting the hold with specific regard to the backtracking "problems".

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
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File: Architectural Bad Habits Backtracking.hold (28.6 KB)
Downloaded 53 times.
License: Public Domain

And here is the hold.

Edit: A new version appears later in the thread.

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[Last edited by bbb at 10-21-2022 05:39 AM]

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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File: Backtracking Contest Entry Xindaris.demo (21.2 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

For demos, I actually have a complete demo set for the hold I submitted in the contest submission thread, which I'll attach here. However, I (or someone) will have to go and re-create them inside the contest hold in order for them to be actually useful, so I'll work on that a bit later.

I'll dedicate the rest of this post to a 'hint guide', which I'll put in a big secret here.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2482
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I thought about adding challenges for going through my entry backwards (or perhaps for both ways) but in the end I didn't do it. I could see about scripting those if there's interest.

Kalin
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 224
Registered: 01-25-2016
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Xindaris:
I didn't realize that was supposed to be a face, or that the first riddle covered both rooms. I just made up challenges until one worked (and ended up doing an extra step).

For the secret room, I think you need some hints about which scrolls are setup and which sequence, since the two directly contradict each other. Also, the scroll at (12,19) appears to be wrong. And how do you get past the firetraps to do Setup 2?

Dragon:
What if you just remove the shortcut? At least three of the rooms block your passage if already cleared.

____________________________
he/him
~170th Skywatcher

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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Kalin:


____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-27-2022 08:13 PM]

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
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And I cleared Pathways.

Kalin
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 224
Registered: 01-25-2016
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bbb:
The secondary challenge is how I did it, since I hate rearranging stuff like that. (I am not even going to attempt your primary challenge.)

____________________________
he/him
~170th Skywatcher

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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Replies..


____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-01-2022 12:58 AM]

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

2S2E:


1S3E:

Kalin
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 224
Registered: 01-25-2016
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I'm sorry to tell you this Xindaris, but there appear to be multiple ways of doing each part of 2S2E. I'm now curious what you thought the fluff was needed for.

My challenge (very close to how I actually solved it):


____________________________
he/him
~170th Skywatcher

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
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So I managed that, though I still had to use the fluff to make ice. And I had to use the speed potion to complete the room this way.

The fluff is intended (I think) to hold the giant in the SE area, like the broken walls to the NW.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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I don't think I have an interest in doing the room that way myself, but I think I can see what's 'wrong' now at least. I needed to set up the briar mechanism differently, maybe so it would lock if whatever was on the two buttons the giant's supposed to be on didn't get off pretty quickly? The stick just gives the player too many options, I suppose.

Well, it's officially too much effort/change for me to bother with for modifying something in a contest compilation.

As for reading the scroll, I would give challenge credit for the player stepping on the scroll and then on the west edge of the room (any of those tiles), since that proves that you've actually escaped.

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-01-2022 10:04 PM]

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

What I'm leaning to at the moment is to keep the submissions as is, and add a bonus level with modified versions of rooms which enforce challenges.

That is work I'll have to do, but I'd still like to ask if anybody (especially Xindaris whose rooms are most affected) has any opposition to this option.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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I have no objection to that. I don't think there was anything I seriously wanted to change in my entry at this point, unless I forgot something that I said I would alter in an earlier post here.

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

I attached an updated hold in the second post.

Changes:

* De-anonymized entry title scrolls.

* Changed entry order in hub to reverse contest placement.

* Added a bonus level with modified rooms to enforce challenges mentioned above.

Please test and comment. If I didn't mess anything up, and don't get new comments or ideas for additional challenge rooms, I'll probably submit the hold as is.

I plan on submitting next week unless issues come up.

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[Last edited by bbb at 09-08-2022 05:18 PM]

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
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Issues with the hold:

Clock: The challenge in 2N can be completed trivially by entering the room when it is already conquered. Do you want to fix it? Should we?

Xindaris: The script in 1S1E for counting the eyes doesn't work in 5.1.0.6501. It may depend on a new feature in 5.1.1 or some bug fix in between. Are you able to fix the script for the older version?

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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Here is the script that counts the eyes:



As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing in it that should depend on the version of DROD; it's practically a copy of one of the earliest (moderately complex) scripts I've ever done. Does it have some other bug? Or, are you absolutely sure that it's failing to do what it's supposed to, which is only check for eyes in a specific region?

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-19-2022 10:21 PM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1213
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The problem is that the script is specifically looking for active Evil Eyes, and support for that was added in 5.1.1

If you look for any kind of eye that will work, but if you need to check for active ones specifically you're out of luck for a while.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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Ok, I think it looks for active eyes specifically because in the newest version, looking for "evil eye" will only find inactive ones. If I'm wrong, it should be fine to just look for "evil eye", since there's no way to put inactive ones in that region anyway. But if I'm right, we just need to copy the statement that looks for active evil eyes and paste it, with the second copy looking for inactive ones instead.

That is: Probably the best fix is to replace

With

...I think. This is without me going into the game to actually see what the menu options are for entities to look for.

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-20-2022 12:55 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

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Xindaris wrote:
Ok, I think it looks for active eyes specifically because in the newest version, looking for "evil eye" will only find inactive ones.

Good news: you are wrong. Waiting for Evil Eyes will find eyes in any state.

Ideally in the future if you believe a script command was changed in a way that would break a large number of scripts that already use it, consider testing in-game to see if that thought is actually true. Then if it is true please post about on the Bugs board instead of in a thread in Architecture.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

File: Architectural Bad Habits Backtracking.hold (28.6 KB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

Here is an updated hold with the fixed script. Please verify I fixed it correctly.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
IP: Logged

To be clear, my meaning in my last post was that I thought that was the most likely reason why I would write a script specifying active evil eyes, as I didn't and still don't remember my actual reasoning back when I originally wrote it. If that reason isn't right, then I probably just didn't realize that the "Evil eye (active)" was a new feature and used it arbitrarily, thinking "oh, yeah, I'm looking for active ones so this is the right thing to use, right?"

Anyway, sorry for the mess that not-thinking way back then caused.

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-20-2022 08:39 PM]

Clock
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 10-20-2019
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bbb wrote:
Issues with the hold:

Clock: The challenge in 2N can be completed trivially by entering the room when it is already conquered. Do you want to fix it? Should we?

Xindaris: The script in 1S1E for counting the eyes doesn't work in 5.1.0.6501. It may depend on a new feature in 5.1.1 or some bug fix in between. Are you able to fix the script for the older version?

I can't seem to figure out how to replicate what you describe, but the intent of it was that the player would have to complete the room without using all of the decoy potions. Since I'm having difficulty replicating the bug, I would appreciate it if somebody else who's better than me at scripting could fix it.

bbb
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 215
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged

File: Architectural Bad Habits Backtracking.hold (28.6 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

What your script does is wait until the room is clear, and checks if at that point the decoy check is successful.

When you start a cleared room, the first wait finishes immediately, and the challenge triggers if the test is successful. This happens when you did not take the potion in the previous visit, so entering the room a second time after cleared will trigger the bug.

(A side issue is that the challenge triggers one move after clearing the room, and it is natural to leave immediately since you are likely forced to the top row.)

Edit: Fixed challenge by adding a wait for entity monster command at the beginning of the script it works. Please verify.

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[Last edited by bbb at 10-21-2022 09:52 AM]

Clock
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 10-20-2019
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It didn't instantly reward the challenge to me when I conquered the room and came back, and the challenge was rewarded when I did complete it properly. It seems like it works now. Thanks for the assistance!

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 774
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I posted this in the HA chat, but I'm posting it again here for transparency.

My vote is to reject this hold as it does not comply with HA guidelines. We have had contests in the past that have not resulted in a published compilation hold. I don't see that the fact that this is a contest should exempt it from complying with the rules.

If things were changed to remove the backtracking issues, then I would allow it, but that would obviously defeat the point of the contest entries.

As the compilation stands, it is possible to get permanently stuck in both of the entries that I looked at. I assume the same issue will be found in the other entries as well.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1593
Registered: 06-13-2015
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I don't think this hold should get an exception to that rule for being a contest, but rather because it's a deliberate artistic choice in every level in the hold to have "backtracking issues". If the entire intent is that you have to restore sometimes to beat the level, I feel like that's not really what that particular guideline is about? It seems more like a guard rail against making an actually uncompleteable hold, either by accident or by malice. Furthermore, removing the backtracking issues from at least my entry is impossible without fundamentally altering the entire thing and completely losing everything that makes it what it is.

To be clear, I'm not saying "deliberate artistic choice" is a good blanket excuse for every rule, just that it seems like a reasonable one for this specific one.

____________________________
109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 11-08-2022 05:43 AM]

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2482
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Taking a look at the relevant rule:

2. Your hold is bad if there are backtracking issues, like you can't return to a required room you didn't complete, or there are two required paths, either of which make you unable to get to the other one. Unrequired rooms that are not backtrackable are okay...they're just bad form, and we will let you know about it. Also, secret rooms should be reachable. Otherwise people will get mad at you when they can't master your hold.

Emphasis added. So, I believe that the simplest way to comply with the rule is to just have the hold completion staircase be immediately available. Then no rooms are technically required.

Can HAs confirm if this would be acceptable?

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

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We've allowed artistic backtracking problems before in Hypercube and Ghostsmiters.

The way I see it, the reason this rule exists is to prevent the kind of bad player experience where you lose progress and have to redo a lot of rooms.

I haven't seen the hold in question, but if it comes plastered with warning signs about requiring 'restore' to play and the backtracking problems are unfixable by nature, I think it can acceptable even without Dragon Fogel's workaround.

edit:

Ideally you'd want to limit the amount of progress that can be lost to the specific multi-room puzzle. Even for artistic reasons, I wouldn't want to see a hold where you can clear half a level, leave, do three unrelated levels, come back and find that the first level is impossible to finish.

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[Last edited by Doom at 11-08-2022 07:53 AM]