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agaricus5
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icon More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (+4)  
This got totally ignored in the "Feature Requests" board, even after I asked it to be moved when it stopped being a Feature Request, so I shall post it here where it would be more on-topic and more likely to be noticed by people interested in such things.

What I propose is that we extend the system of numbering devised by Erik for coordinate indication.

The system begins at "once" (One time), which does exist in the English language and usually only goes up to "thrice" (Three times) after which it stops.

However, as you may have noticed, Erik has devised a series of numbers to continue the sequence in a semi-Latin/semi-Germanic way that goes from "quarce" (Four times) to "noventonce" (Nineteen times), which allows us to render DROD coordinates in a more stylish way. (Well, at least in my opinion :))

Since, of course, it doesn't seem practical to use these in the game, for "20 times" is perfectly fine for such monster-sized big levels that exceed 19 rooms in any one direction, after much discussion with my friends and my Latin teacher, we decided that such a sequence is far too good to stop at just 19, so we tried to come up with some suggestions for numbers going past this for the sole purpose of usage in the DROD language, stories, pompous speeches and generally confusing people with over-verbose language.

The original ones I came up with, also in the other thread, are more Latin-based than the ones we already have, beginning at "vigintonce" for twenty times, from the Latin for twenty, "viginti".

For 21-29 times, compound numbers could be used, so we could split each number into two parts, a 20 and a single digit part, e.g. 23 = 20 + 3, and add "et" between them to show they are connected.

For example, "21 times" could then be "vigintonce-et-once" (20 + 1 times). Similarily, "25 times" could be "vigintonce-et-quince" (20 + 5 times).

Continuing the sequence, "30 times" could be "trigintonce" from the Latin for thirty (triginta), "40 times" could be "quadragintonce" from the Latin for forty (quadraginta), and so on.

My Latin teacher also suggested "20 times" could be "vince" instead, for it is shorter than "vigintonce" and more in a Germanic style rather than Latin.

So...

What do you, the forum, think about this? Do you have any other suggestions or comments, or is this just too ridiculous?

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03-31-2004 at 12:26 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (0)  
I like this idea, if only for the fun of it. After all, we'll hardly ever use those numbers. But I still like it. :D

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03-31-2004 at 01:26 PM
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icon Re: More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (+2)  
Let's see...

It has very little practical use, involves really complicated words, borrows heavily from foreign languages, and is rather silly...

I like it! :D

The system you've proposed seems rather nice, but there's one suggestion I'd like to make.

agaricus5 wrote:
For 21-29 times, compound numbers could be used, so we could split each number into two parts, a 20 and a single digit part, e.g. 23 = 20 + 3, and add "et" between them to show they are connected.

For example, "21 times" could then be "vigintonce-et-once" (20 + 1 times). Similarily, "25 times" could be "vigintonce-et-quince" (20 + 5 times).

This seems to break the Absolutely Fundamental Regulation of the Extraordinarily Grandiloquent, which is to avoid hyphens and spaces if possible. I'd suggest to render 21-29 with some sort of prefix which is attached to 20. Right now I'm thinking of the Greek prefixes (mono-, bi-, tri-, tetra-, penta-, etc.), so "25 times" would be "pentavigintonce". If Latin has a similar system of prefixes, we could use those. Or is this idea too silly?

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03-31-2004 at 01:37 PM
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krammer
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Hey, an immediate way of counting up to 100 in a new language! I like Watcher's improvement particularly, as long words are always good. Now if we can get up to hundreds and thousands...

*STAMP*

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03-31-2004 at 04:25 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (+1)  
Thanks for the positive response!

I do agree - Watcher's suggestion is quite nicer, for it incorporates another language into the system and makes for really fun long words.

For those not into Latin, the system we proposed goes like this (For multiples of 10 only), up to 90:

20 times - vigintonce,
30 times - trigintonce,
40 times - quadragintonce,
50 times - quinquagintonce,
60 times - sexagintonce,
70 times - septuagintonce,
80 times - octagintonce,
90 times - nonagintonce.

Watcher's suggestion then allows us to add all the numbers in-between by adding the Greek numerical prefixes to these base multiples of ten:

+1 - mono
+2 - bi
+3 - tri
+4 - tetra
+5 - penta
+6 - hexa
+7 - hepta
+8 - octa
[+9 - ennea]?

Meaning, for example, 56 times would be hexaquinquagintonce, or 73 times would be triseptuagintonce.

One possible problem is, though, although minor, is that adding such prefixes in such a way is sort of counter-intuitive, for usually the prefix tells you how many there are of the word it is attached to, so for example, bi-nucleate means "Possessing two nuclei".
In this light, triquadragintonce should mean 40*3 times, or 120 times, not 43 as it is in this system.

Still, I don't think this is too much of a problem - it just takes some time getting used to.

Thanks for the addition, Watcher.

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03-31-2004 at 09:24 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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That would be a little long to fit on the top.....

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03-31-2004 at 11:19 PM
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trick
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Quoth agaricus5:
triquadragintonce should mean 40*3 times, or 120 times, not 43 as it is in this system.

We could just use them as intended, couldn't we ? Prime numbers are a problem, though...

20 = bitonce
21 = triseptence
22 = bielevonce
23 = bielevtwice ? ;)
24 = bitwolce
25 = pentaquince
...

- Gerry

[Edited by trick on 03-31-2004 at 10:33 PM GMT]
03-31-2004 at 11:32 PM
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DiMono
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Or you could move those prefixes to the middle of the word. So:

63rd would be sexagintrionce
94th would be nonagintetronce
38th would be trigintoctonce

...wow, whether this is a numbering system that makes sense or not, the words I just made are a lot of fun to say.

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04-01-2004 at 03:18 AM
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agaricus5
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trick wrote:
Quoth agaricus5:
triquadragintonce should mean 40*3 times, or 120 times, not 43 as it is in this system.

We could just use them as intended, couldn't we ? Prime numbers are a problem, though...

20 = bitonce
21 = triseptence
22 = bielevonce
23 = bielevtwice ? ;)
24 = bitwolce
25 = pentaquince
...

- Gerry

[Edited by trick on 03-31-2004 at 10:33 PM GMT]

The problem with that is that you will have to be good at mathematics to use this system, for instead of using place numbers and bases to specify a number, you are relying on using its factors. It also means that you may have several versions of one number if it happens to have a lot of factors.

For example, "36 times", using conventional base 10 number systems, would be hexatrigintonce, or triginhexatonce (Using DiMono's idea, which actually looks even more confusing) because 36 = 30 + 6.

If we used your system, trick, 36 could be 2*18, 3*12, 4*9 or 6*6 (When one factor is >10), so for "36 times" we could have "bioctonce", "tritwolce", tetranovence or hexasence. The thing is, they sound really cool (In fact cool enough to start a whole new subsystem), but I think they'd be a little too mathematical to use, and would not really follow the pattern of Erik's numbers as closely.

Still, it's a nice variation on the system, and I'll have a think about cases for prime numbers in it.

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04-01-2004 at 01:04 PM
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gds
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With watcher's system, what happens after 99?

To keep it consistent you would have to add the hundreds at the end of the world. So the system would actually be the reverse of our conventional system: first units, then tens, hundreds, thousands, ...

You also need to define a prefix (suffix ? middlefix ?) not only for 100 but also for 200, 300, etc. Something like:
100: centi
200: duocenti
300: tricenti
400: quadricenti
500: quinticenti
600: sexicenti
700: septicenti
800: octicenti
900: nonicenti

And the same goes for thousands, replacing centi by milli. So 3549 would be enneaquadragintaquinticentitrimillitonce ?

Yeah, we can now measure distances across the whole of the eighth (what's the unit ?)

Note that I have used a sort of latin for the above, but you may want to use yet another language. Or maybe alternate between greek and latin.
04-01-2004 at 02:10 PM
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krammer
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Agaricus - I think 9 is nona- in the Greek as well as the Latin (i.e. nonagon for 9 sided). So 99 is nonanonagintonce.

I still think hundreds can go at the front though, as in German say. Septacentiheptaseptuagintonce is such a cool word. (777 times, if you can't work it out.)

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04-01-2004 at 02:40 PM
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agaricus5
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gds wrote:
With watcher's system, what happens after 99?

To keep it consistent you would have to add the hundreds at the end of the world. So the system would actually be the reverse of our conventional system: first units, then tens, hundreds, thousands, ...

You also need to define a prefix (suffix ? middlefix ?) not only for 100 but also for 200, 300, etc. Something like:
100: centi
200: duocenti
300: tricenti
400: quadricenti
500: quinticenti
600: sexicenti
700: septicenti
800: octicenti
900: nonicenti

And the same goes for thousands, replacing centi by milli. So 3549 would be enneaquadragintaquinticentitrimillitonce ?

Yeah, we can now measure distances across the whole of the eighth (what's the unit ?)

Note that I have used a sort of latin for the above, but you may want to use yet another language. Or maybe alternate between greek and latin.

That's a very cool addition. Now we really have our own system of numbers.

However, I hasten to add that these are (Coordinate) Indicatory numbers. What this means is that they stand for a number of times something happens. Remember the list begins at "once", meaning "one time". For all the numbers in this system, just add "times" to the end of the number, so for example...

Trivigintasepticentonce means "723 times"

So in context, it would be used thus:

Trivigintasepticentonce had I visited Dugan's Dungeon, and I never found anything down there but tiny roaches and rats," said Harlus to Beethro. "How come it was full of monsters when you went down?"

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04-01-2004 at 02:47 PM
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Here's another idea I came up with recently. Hopefully even sillier than my first one. :w00t This will allow up to count up to a million with indicatory numbers.

Given a number with six digits, for example 357819, divide it into groups of two digits. In this case: 35 78 19. The last number is the number of ones. The middle number is the number of hundreds. And the first number is the number of myriads, a myriad being equal to ten thousand.

Now, write each of the three numbers using our earlier system. I'll repeat it here for convenience: Ones come before tens. Ones are written using these prefixes:

1 - mono
2 - bi
3 - tri
4 - tetra
5 - penta
6 - hexa
7 - hepta
8 - octa
9 - nona

Tens are written like this:

10 - deci
20 - viginti
30 - triginti
40 - quadraginti
50 - quinquaginti
60 - sexaginti
70 - septuaginti
80 - octaginti
90 - nonaginti

Three further infixes are used: uni to indicate ones, centi to indicate hundreds, and myri to indicate myriads. These are put after their respective two-digit numbers.

Putting it all together, 357819 times becomes nonadeciunioctaseptuaginticentipentatrigintimyrionce.

If there are no hundreds or ones, just leave out their infixes, and if the number is below 10000, leave out the myriads part. For example, 120064 times becomes tetrasexagintiunibidecimyrionce, and 2300 times becomes triviginticentionce. For numbers below 100, leave out the uni part as well (giving the same system as we use now). Also, if a two-digit number contains no ones or no tens, leave out that part. So 350 times becomes trigintiunipentacentionce.

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04-21-2004 at 04:04 PM
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Watcher wrote:
357819 times becomes nonadeciunioctaseptuaginticentipentatrigintimyrionce.
My brain just exploded. Now I need to clean my keyboard. I hope you're happy.

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04-21-2004 at 04:13 PM
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agaricus5
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Watcher wrote:
Here's another idea I came up with recently. Hopefully even sillier than my first one. :w00t This will allow up to count up to a million with indicatory numbers.

Given a number with six digits, for example 357819, divide it into groups of two digits. In this case: 35 78 19. The last number is the number of ones. The middle number is the number of hundreds. And the first number is the number of myriads, a myriad being equal to ten thousand.

Now, write each of the three numbers using our earlier system. I'll repeat it here for convenience: Ones come before tens. Ones are written using these prefixes:

1 - mono
2 - bi
3 - tri
4 - tetra
5 - penta
6 - hexa
7 - hepta
8 - octa
9 - nona

Tens are written like this:

10 - deci
20 - viginti
30 - triginti
40 - quadraginti
50 - quinquaginti
60 - sexaginti
70 - septuaginti
80 - octaginti
90 - nonaginti

Three further infixes are used: uni to indicate ones, centi to indicate hundreds, and myri to indicate myriads. These are put after their respective two-digit numbers.

Putting it all together, 357819 times becomes nonadeciunioctaseptuaginticentipentatrigintimyrionce.

If there are no hundreds or ones, just leave out their infixes, and if the number is below 10000, leave out the myriads part. For example, 120064 times becomes tetrasexagintiunibidecimyrionce, and 2300 times becomes triviginticentionce. For numbers below 100, leave out the uni part as well (giving the same system as we use now). Also, if a two-digit number contains no ones or no tens, leave out that part. So 350 times becomes trigintiunipentacentionce.
That's a nice addition, Watcher. I see the logic behind it, although working with place values of 100 instead of 10 or 1000 is a bit counter-intuitive to begin with. I'll have a little think to see if it can be adapted a bit, although I do like the "myriads" part.

One thing I would like to change though, although trivial, is the spelling of 100 times. I think centonce is slightly better than centionce because centonce removes the Latin ending and so instead of having a double vowel, you have a single, so it stresses the "(t)once" bit better, which I think is important.

However, under these rules, I think 350 times is actually quinquagintiunitricentonce, not trigintiunipentacentonce, which I think is 530 times.

Still, it's a great addition to Erik's system, which fully deserves much merit for its silliness and inventiveness.

I propose that 1 million times, however, be "millionce", for it more closely resembles the English word than the Latin, which apparently is "decies centena milia" and is a sort of sudden change from previous words in the sequence, since it is such an important number.

I'll begin to compile this when I've got some time, and perhaps we could put it on DROD.net, if Matt is interested.

Thanks, Watcher, for creating this addition.

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04-21-2004 at 05:35 PM
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Watcher wrote:
nonadeciunioctaseptuaginticentipentatrigintimyrionce.

Zuh? oh yes:
Watcher wrote:
Never underestimate the power of a bored mathematician.
If my DROD ever puts that at the top of my screen, I will immediately unplug my computer, and join a monastery, take a lifetime vow of silence, and spend the rest of my life praying for forgiveness.

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04-21-2004 at 07:44 PM
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At a conservative estimate, it would take twelve and a half days solid of holding down an arrow key to get through even 357819 empty rooms, anyway.

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04-21-2004 at 07:50 PM
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Oh boy, is this confusing!

May I make one little suggestion - can you use hyphens to seperate uni, centi, and myri parts? I also like to read the number from left to right, although I guess that's just personal perferences. So, if hyphens are used, 357819 would look something like

pentatrigintimyri-heptaoctaginticenti-nonadeciunionce???

I'm not so sure that resembles a number. Oh yes, just for fun, Watcher's 357819 is 52 letters long.

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04-21-2004 at 10:15 PM
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masonjason wrote:
At a conservative estimate, it would take twelve and a half days solid of holding down an arrow key to get through even 357819 empty rooms, anyway.

That, followed by a scroll you cannot reach this way, would be a big danger to the mental stablilty of droders.
04-21-2004 at 11:18 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
However, under these rules, I think 350 times is actually quinquagintiunitricentonce, not trigintiunipentacentonce, which I think is 530 times.

Right. I messed up that one.

I propose that 1 million times, however, be "millionce", for it more closely resembles the English word than the Latin, which apparently is "decies centena milia" and is a sort of sudden change from previous words in the sequence, since it is such an important number.

Seems like a good idea.

Also, I like doink's suggestion for hyphenation, although I'd retain the order. So 357819 times becomes nonadeciuni-octaseptuaginticenti-pentatrigintimyrionce.

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04-22-2004 at 09:02 AM
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Thanks for all the suggestions - it's been fun making our own system of numbers for DROD, and the additions have been very innovative.

However, we need one more addition before I can compile the entire system into a single article (perhaps for DROD.net if Matt is interested).

We need to make an extension of the system that thakes the scope past 1 million and (hopefully) into infinity (although going beyond is also a possibility :)).

After some thought with my friends, we have come up with two different possible extensions:

1. Continue the sequence using place values of 100

This would continue the system in much the same way as Watcher's addition, using place values of 100. As suggested above, "1 million times" will be "millionce", from the English word "million" (not "mille" meaning "thousand" in Latin), plus the ending "-once" to make it an Indicatory number. Numbers larger than 1 million will require additional infixes - "milli", "billi", "trilli", etc. from the English words denoting those numbers, "million", "billion", "trillion", etc.

However, since we are working in place values of 100, we need to use the old meanings of "billion", "trillion" and so on, not today's modern meanings, which means that 1 billion is a million millions, not a thousand millions as it is today, and a trillion is a million billions, not a thousand billions.

So the infixes will be thus:

10^6 times - milli (From "million" )
10^12 times - billi (From "billion" )
10^18 times - trilli (From "trillion" )
10^24 times - quadrilli (From "quadrillion" )
10^30 times - quintilli (From "quintillion" )
And so on.

The forming of the numbers is similar to before, except that now, we require the number to be split into six digit groups first before further splitting down to two digit numbers.

Take this example: "402854639858237 times"

First split the number into groups of six digits starting from the right:

[000]402, 854639, 858237, meaning there are 402 billions, 854639 millions and 858237 units (Remember we are using the old system where 1 billion is a million millions). The million and billion groups will therefore have the infixes "milli" and "billi" added to their ends.

Now we need to find out exactly how many millions, billions and units we have. To do this, we need to split the groups of six numbers further into two digit numbers:

[00], [0]4, [0]2; (billions)
85, 46, 39; (millions)
85, 82, 37 (units)

Using the same system as Watcher added, translate the two digit numbers by taking the base tens number:

10 - deci
20 - viginti
30 - triginti
40 - quadraginti
50 - quinquaginti
60 - sexaginti
70 - septuaginti
80 - octaginti
90 - nonaginti

And adding the Greek prefix to the start of it (if there is a tens part):

1 - mono
2 - bi
3 - tri
4 - tetra
5 - penta
6 - hexa
7 - hepta
8 - octa
9 - ennea ("nona" is Latin, not Greek)

Then, to each of the two digit numbers add the suffixes "uni", "centi" and "myri", treating each group of 6 numbers separately.

So we have now the translated number pairs:

tetracenti, biuni; (billions)
pentaoctagintimyri, hexaquadraginticenti, enneatrigintiuni; (millions)
pentaoctagintimyri, bioctaginticenti, heptatrigintiuni (units).

Now reverse the order of the numbers and stick them together, adding "milli" to the millions group and "billi" to the billions group:

biunitetracentibilli,
enneatrigintiunihexaquadraginticentipentaoctagintimyrimilli,
heptatrigintiunibioctaginticentipentaoctagintimyri

Now reverse the order of these groups, putting units first, millions second, and billions last, adding "once" to the end of the number.

So "402854639858237 times" translated to an Indicatory Number in this way is:

"heptatrigintiunibioctaginticentipentaoctagintimyrienneatrigintiunihexaquadraginticentipentaoctagintimyrimillibiunitetracentibillionce".

What fun! (Although a little tongue-twistingly repetitive)

Alternatively...

2. Continue the sequence using place values of 10

For this, numbers after 1000000 will be grouped as they are in English - in 1000s, not millions as in above. The infixes will be "milli", "billi", "trilli", etc. again, but this time, the numbers that they correspond to, "million", "billion", "trillion", etc., will have the same meaning as the numbers adopted today. "billion" will mean a "thousand million", and "trillion" a "thousand billion", and so on. The infixes will then be:

10^6 times - milli
10^9 times - billi
10^12 times - trilli
10^15 times - quadrilli
10^18 times - quintilli
And so on.

To form the numbers this time, the number will need to be split thrice:
First into two parts, one containing the last 6 numbers and the other the rest of the number.
The second involves the splitting of the rest of the number (the first digit to the seventh-to last) into groups of three, beginning from the right.
The final split involves splitting the last six digits into three groups of 2 digits like before.

So for the above example, "402854639858237 times", split the number into two parts, with the last six digits in one, and the rest in the other:

402854639, 858237.

Now split the rest of the number (not the last 6 digits) into groups of three:

402, 854, 639, 858237.

Now split the last 6 digits into groups of 2:

402, 854, 639, 85, 82, 37.

First translate the pairs of numbers (in blue) as described above, adding the Greek prefix to the Latin base tens number, then adding the uni, centi or myri suffix to the corresponding pair.

To translate the groups of three, use a similar technique, translating the last two digits of each like before, adding "uni" to the end, and then adding "centi" with the necessary Greek prefix to the end as before. So "506" will become "hexaunipentacenti". The translated groups are now:

biunitetracenti, tetraquinquagintiunaoctacenti, enneatrigintiunihexacenti, pentaoctagintimyri, bioctaginticenti, heptatrigintiuni.

Now add the infixes "milli" to the millions group, "billi" to the billions group and "trilli" to the trillions group, reverse the order of the groups, so units come first and trillions come last, stick them together and then add "once" to the end like before.

So "402854639858237 times" translated to an Indicatory Number in this way is:

"heptatrigintiunibioctaginticentipentaoctagintimyrienneatrigintiunihexacentimillitetraquinquagintiunaoctacentibillibiunitetracentitrillionce"

Also much fun to speak aloud, we found.

So... I hope that hasn't been too confusing.

Well, the question is, obviously: Which do you prefer?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-22-2004 at 11:34 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-23-2004 at 06:30 PM GMT]

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05-23-2004 at 12:33 AM
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Mouse
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icon Re: More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (0)  
Agricus, a small correction on your statement:
"we need to use the old meanings of "billion", "trillion" and so on, not today's modern meanings, which means that 1 billion is a million millions, not a thousand millions as it is today,"

In the USA and Canada one billion is one thougand million, however in the UK, New Zealand, Australia, etc (ie everywhere else) one billion is one million million and always has been. So your statement should conclude "as is is in the USA"

This does mean that English billionaire is richer than an American one.

Anyway, I like this method more. I think it's more natural for more of the world.




07-26-2005 at 07:56 PM
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Syntax
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icon Re: More DROD Coordinate (Indicatory) Numbers? (0)  
Wow... slight flashback there from approx. 1/2 hour ago when I was travelling home on the tube.

If you are in the UK, please turn to page 20 of the wonderful free paper The Metro, and I quote:

"A trillion is now genereally accepted to be a thousand billion or a million million although, traditionally, the British trillion used to be a million million million."

What a weird coincidence... :-O

[[[

For those interested, the article is titled:
5,800,000,000,000*
(*why even Abramovich cannot buy up Britain)

The reason is, he "only" has 7.5 billion which is 7,500,000,000.

(he's the guy who bought Chelsea FC coz he felt like it ;))

]]]

[EDIT]

Actually, Mouse, did you read the Metro today ? :)

[Last edited by Syntax at 07-26-2005 08:23 PM]
07-26-2005 at 08:21 PM
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