wonkyth
Level: Goblin
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a problem I notice a long time ago was that when you use the modify weather spell while its during winter, it only stays unsnowed for one turn.
that isnt much of a problem once it has stopped snowing as it doesn't come back.
but it still limits its uses.

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grobblewobble
Level: Roachling

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Sorry for digging up an old post, but I think this is the best place..

My thoughts on current game balance:

Dwarves are too strong, as it stands. This is partly my fault, as it is mostly because of some changes to the dwarves that I suggested myself, a long time ago. It would perhaps be best to undo most of those changes. What I'm talking about:

War machine: has upkeep 5 (used to be 6, which I now think is better)
Slayer: has upkeep 4 (used to be 5, please undo)
Miner: has mountaineer, used to be forester + guide (instead of arsonist). Again, I regret suggesting this.
Standard mountain: it often looks weird, gets in the way of roads, for balance it's not needed.. I wouldn't mind if this feature would be removed, too.

Now some other points:

Thazuun is a bit too good IMO, maybe 50% -> 33-40%?
Battleship (dwarf) should be either a bit stronger, cheaper or faster.
Shapeshifter: I never build these because 70 work is a bit much..

Storm Run + Cloudship (+ Behemoth) = overpowered.. I think the best solution would be not to allow storm run on bulky units. Storm Run would still remain a good spell in that case. (Some remaining good uses would be Envoy, Diviner, Pega Rider, Behemoth, Hero, etc).

And I think the upkeep of cloudships could be increased a bit.
The hydra, OTOH, could do with slightly lower upkeep.

The way Bulky currently reduces stats inside cities is a bit awkward imo. For example, when a dragon happens to stand inside some small town without city walls, it is suddenly a lot weaker.. How about this alternative: when a bulky unit is camped, it does not gain any defense or resistance bonus? Or, maybe it gains the terrain bonus but not the city defense bonus?

Regarding monoliths, imo most of them have their uses, although I think the mystic monolith should give a bit more reduction (say, 12.5% or 15%). However, I see very little practical use for peace monoliths. The 'city may never be destroyed' effect adds some flavour, but isn't really compelling. How about adding a defense bonus, instead?

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 03-27-2010 09:32 PM]

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
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grobblewobble wrote:
Regarding monoliths, imo most of them have their uses, although I think the mystic monolith should give a bit more reduction (say, 12.5% or 15%).

Since the effect from the Mystic Monolith is cumulative, I'd actually say less, not more; as it stands, ten such monoliths would make all spells essentially free (at least in theory; the most I've ever done is nine).

However, I see very little practical use for peace monoliths.

It's a good idea to use them if you use a lot of spells/effects that cause unhappiness.

Also, in some games, I've had my capital city slowly lose happiness for no apparent reason (I checked, no enemies anywhere nearby), so I always build one there if my tech tree doesn't have a building that increases happiness.

____________________________
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If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

---

[Last edited by The Mystic at 03-28-2010 04:37 AM]

grobblewobble
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The Mystic wrote:
Since the effect from the Mystic Monolith is cumulative, I'd actually say less, not more; as it stands, ten such monoliths would make all spells essentially free (at least in theory; the most I've ever done is nine).

Ah, I see. I thought there was a cap somewhere. Maybe it would be a good idea to cap the effect, for example at 30% spellcost?

The Mystic wrote:
It's a good idea to use them if you use a lot of spells/effects that cause unhappiness.

Could you maybe give an example of such a situation? The thing is, in my experience it is usually more efficient to give some festivals in such cases. That could have to do with differences in playing style, of course. In theory you could win by building peace monoliths and casting lots of misery, but I tried that idea and it didn't work out too well in practice for me. (Building grand monoliths seems easier.)
Of course my point is not that the peace monolith is useless, just that I think it could be improved a little bit. A +1 defense bonus could be a fun addition and give it just that little boost that it needs imo.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 03-28-2010 09:49 AM]

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
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grobblewobble wrote:

The Mystic wrote:
Since the effect from the Mystic Monolith is cumulative, I'd actually say less, not more; as it stands, ten such monoliths would make all spells essentially free (at least in theory; the most I've ever done is nine).

Ah, I see. I thought there was a cap somewhere. Maybe it would be a good idea to cap the effect, for example at 30% spellcost?

I'm all for some kind of cap; otherwise, as I said, your spells would be basically free, save for any upkeep. As they are, Mystic Monoliths are massively overpowered.

Another route is that Mystic Monoliths reduce the casting cost by 10% of the current cost, not 10% of the original cost. More monoliths would still reduce the casting cost, but the effect would be smaller with each one you build. As I understand it, the current 10% reduction formula is C - (C * 0.1 * N), where C is the original spell cost, and N is the number of Mystic Monoliths. Under the formula I'm suggesting, the 10% reduction would be C * 0.9^N. If I calculated right, using this method, four Mystic Monoliths would reduce the spell cost by about 34%, as opposed to 40% under the current system.

grobblewobble wrote:

The Mystic wrote:
It's a good idea to use them if you use a lot of spells/effects that cause unhappiness.

Could you maybe give an example of such a situation? The thing is, in my experience it is usually more efficient to give some festivals in such cases. That could have to do with differences in playing style, of course. In theory you could win by building peace monoliths and casting lots of misery, but I tried that idea and it didn't work out too well in practice for me. (Building grand monoliths seems easier.)

I didn't mean winning per se (though as you said, it's theoretically possible), but to help counter the effects of unhappiness. For example, I tend to do a lot of rush builds, so some structure that raises happiness (like Thermae, Round Table, or even the Peace Monolith itself) can come in handy, and helps keep morale (and the production bonuses it provides) high.

About two or three years ago now, I played a game as Humans, worshipping Jolina Lightbringer, and in one city, I put both a Round Table and a Peace Monolith. Morale remained sky-high for the rest of the game, no matter what I did.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

---

[Last edited by The Mystic at 03-29-2010 03:12 PM]

Danjen02
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Another possible formula is [X / (X + 3)]; no change with 0 monoliths, 25% with 1, and 75% reduction with 9. After that, it levels off, and never passes 100% (you'd need something like 28 to reach 90%).

So, yeah... just throwing that out there.

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grobblewobble
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The Mystic wrote:
Another route is that Mystic Monoliths reduce the casting cost by 10% of the current cost, not 10% of the original cost.
[snip]
Under the formula I'm suggesting, the 10% reduction would be C * 0.9^N.

I like your idea there a lot, Mystic. Sounds really good to me. Also good to see that you value the peace monolith differently, you've got a good point with the rush builds.

Danjen: I would be in favour of a mildly increased effect of the first mystic monolith, but 25% sounds like too much. I was thinking of 12.5%. In combination with the formula Mystic suggested, that would make it C * (87.5)^N. Or would that still be overpowered in your opinions?

Edit: Here's a table:

 N: spell cost (rounded) [old reduction]
 0: 100% [100%]
 1:  88%  [90%]
 2:  77%  [80%]
 3:  67%  [70%]
 4:  59%  [60%]
 5:  51%  [50%]
 6:  45%  [40%]
 7:  39%  [30%]
 8:  34%  [20%]
 9:  30%  [10%]
10:  26%  [ 0%]

---

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 03-29-2010 12:59 PM]

Radiant
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grobblewobble wrote:
Standard mountain: it often looks weird, gets in the way of roads, for balance it's not needed.. I wouldn't mind if this feature would be removed, too.

Hm, I'm not sure about this one. It means that if the dwarves randomly end up with a city next to a mountain, they get a substantial bonus, wouldn't it?

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Radiant
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I agree with the upkeep and shapeshifter cost.

Storm Run is intended to work on bulky units, but I could restrict it from carriers. Regarding bulky and cities, it makes reasonable sense for anything except dragons (and in case of dragons, assume he has to hold back to keep from trashing the city whoever uses dragons for defense, anyway?)


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grobblewobble
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Radiant wrote:
Hm, I'm not sure about this one. It means that if the dwarves randomly end up with a city next to a mountain, they get a substantial bonus, wouldn't it?

Actually, a miner camped in a fort on a river gives you as much gold as a miner on a mountain. So that means that dwarves get a bonus when starting next to either mountains or rivers. (This is already the case for goblins.)

Then again, a mountain also allows you access to part of the tech tree of course.

EDIT: PS, I think I already mentioned this, but can't remember where.. the locust swarm is really too strong. Instead of 9 HP I suggest 7 HP (I'm quite sure that 8 would still be too much).

EDIT2:

whoever uses dragons for defense, anyway?

The point is that since dragons aren't tireless, they're inevitably going to end their turn in cities.. And in those situations, it will be a very common situation that the opponent immediately tries to capture his city back (and be greatly helped by this game feature). So it's not by any means a strange or uncommon scenario.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-02-2010 12:44 AM]

Danjen02
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The standard mountain thing... is this regarding the fact that dwarves begin with a mountain beside them? Recall that the S'sirthe also start with a pool of water, so it doesn't seem entirely out of place. I think the dwarves' way of generating gold is via mining (not many buildings increasing gold production), so having a guaranteed way to produce gold seems fair.

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grobblewobble
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Yes Danjen, that's what it's about.

I think the dwarves' way of generating gold is via mining (not many buildings increasing gold production)

Ore refinery gives +1, Deep shaft gives +2, Bazaar +1. Originally, the bazaar did not increase gold production, so a different option would be to keep the standard mountain, but remove the +1 gold from bazaar. The bazaar already increases happiness.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-02-2010 02:46 PM]

Danjen02
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Some alliance combinations seem to be better than others. For example, regency/dwarves seems to have no detection or magesight abilities at all, while human/elves have at least 2 units with magesight and another with detection... I guess certain heroes are supposed to fill the gaps in?

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grobblewobble
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Regency / Dwarves have no magesight, though they do have detection from the working spider. If you play an alliance combination without detection, you can compensate by hiring a hero and learning the detection skill, plus the alliance boat has detection. There are only a few alliance combinations without magesight, and if you pick one I think you're supposed to compensate by choosing at least one sphere of energy magic. However, in our current game, choosing energy magic wouldn't have helped you because both magesight and aether sense have randomly been disabled. To be honest, I am starting to dislike random research restriction.

You still have some options. First of all, if you get lucky with random mercenaries you could buy one with magesight. In fact, you already managed this - your diviner has magesight. Secondly, the AI sometimes builds units with magesight, so you could try life draining one with a ghoul. There is also one hero with magesight, I think his name is Song of Raindrops. Hiring him will take some patience, but if you keep declining offers he will turn up eventually.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-04-2010 07:52 AM]

Danjen02
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I guess you can improvise with heroes and such, I just wasn't looking hard enough!

I've never played with random restrictions before, on personal principle - if one player uses strategy X, and the best way to stop it is with a spell that got disabled, that is a HUGE advantage for them.

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Radiant
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grobblewobble wrote:
To be honest, I am starting to dislike random research restriction.

Well, of course you can turn that off

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grobblewobble
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I wonder, has anybody playtested the goblins? I'm trying to find out how they balance against the other races, but they're so different that it is hard to compare them properly.

Impressions so far:

* Currently I'm starting to think that the proper production time for a scavenger would be 2 turns, rather than 3. Mana production (sorcerers) seems to be reasonably well balanced.
* The spell that causes unhappiness in all cities is a natural strategy with them and is probably overpowered. I'm not sure what should be done about that?
* They're really very different from other races. They can grow pretty fast, but are less flexible in adapting their gold production. (Producing too little gold is obviously a problem; producing too much gold is wasteful because it's lost to corruption.) It is also harder to defend tribes and hordes of scavengers than to defend cities.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-07-2010 09:37 AM]

Radiant
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Danjen02 wrote:
Some alliance combinations seem to be better than others. For example, regency/dwarves seems to have no detection or magesight abilities at all, while human/elves have at least 2 units with magesight and another with detection... I guess certain heroes are supposed to fill the gaps in?

Yes. Not all races are equally good at detection or magesight. Some have a unit that does that early in their tech tree, others don't. Unlike movement abilities (like ranger), lack of e.g. magesight is not insurmountable, and yes, it can be covered through magic.

grobblewobble wrote:
I wonder, has anybody playtested the goblins?

Primarily, you

* The spell that causes unhappiness in all cities is a natural strategy with them and is probably overpowered. I'm not sure what should be done about that?

Misery. Hm. I suggest it should set back their unit production, would that work?


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grobblewobble
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Hmm.. I'm afraid setting back unit production is not sufficient. Once the goblins start chain casting misery, they're in for the kill. At that moment, producing more units is no longer very important for them.

One way to deal with it would be to change it into a global enchantment (like call the void). That would limit the effect. The problem with the current implementation is that the only limit is mana production, so if the goblins have sufficient mana it acts like a mass abjuration.

Radiant
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Making it global would still mean goblins aren't affected, though. An alternative idea - each Tribe unit has a 5% chance of being disbanded by Misery.

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grobblewobble
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The fact that goblins are not affected is not really a problem by itself in my opinion. There are other spells that hit goblins harder than anyone else (like meteor storm). There are also gods that do not have any effect on goblins and spells from which the goblins can't benefit (any spell that is cast on cities).

Regardless, even 5% chance of losing each tribe is not enough to balance the current situation. The tribes do not produce mana, so as long as just one of them remains, you're still alive and your mana production is not affected, meaning you can keep chain casting misery. It's going to take really long before you lose the last tribe, but the other races (except maybe dwarf or someone with a large number of mines under control) will enter a downward spiral and be dead quite soon.

If it would be a global spell, the effect could be limited to something that's manageable when it's used against you, no matter what race you play. I admit that it would become a sort of special goblin spell, but then again there are also spells that are of no use to goblins at all, so I wouldn't really mind.

Radiant
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Ok, that's a good point.

Regarding the peace monolith, note that happy citizens produce more gold, mana, and work.

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Danjen02
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Can goblins built fortresses or no? Units with mining would get a wage reduction in a fortress, so if they can't then that's another advantage a race like the dwarves have over them.

Also, how big are these bonuses, exactly? Is there a big difference between dissatisfied, content and happy?

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LesserMinion
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The goblin miners have no upkeep cost anyway, and goblins also have easy access to the Inspire skill.

I don't know how happiness affects mana, gold, or work, although I was surprised by the way popuation growth works.

I get the impression that the game tries to stop you from quickly amassing city population by applying steadily increasing penalties to growth until you deliberately do something to stimulate growth.

Is that right?

Danjen02
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The goblin miners have no upkeep cost anyway, and goblins also have easy access to the Inspire skill.

Yeah, I guess it would help if I check the facts out before I suggest something, huh?

I know my citizens went from dissatisfied to content, and mana production jumped from 25 to 28... so a 12% increase between happiness levels, with content being the base amount?

I don't know exactly how growth works, but it seems to level off somewhat. I am actually kind of curious as to how some cities with bad growth jump from 20 people/turn to 80 with just one farmer, while larger cities only get maybe 10 or so growth per farmer (I might be exaggerating a bit here, but you know what I mean).

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LesserMinion
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Also, what is the effect of expelling a unit from a city?

It looks like it actually kills the unit, which might be a little over the top.

I'm not sure whether or not I'm a fan of liches hard countering honour-sworn, although I haven't really looked at it in full, and honour-sworn should be otherwise pretty good against the Regency.

As for the misery with goblins thing, I guess you could deplete health from tribes. Since a tribe is a pretty big thing, health=morale makes quite a bit of sense. Healing would be a problem, however - I can imagine someone stacking a sage with every tribe and then chain-casting Misery.

If Misery became a global enchantment, then you could always just apply a penalty to tribes while the spell remains in play.

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[Last edited by LesserMinion at 04-08-2010 04:50 AM]

grobblewobble
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LesserMinion wrote:
I get the impression that the game tries to stop you from quickly amassing city population by applying steadily increasing penalties to growth until you deliberately do something to stimulate growth.

The growth formula for cities is from my hand. It basically works as follows.

Note the maximum population; let's say its 14K. If you have 4 farmers, the city will eventually reach that size. However, as you get closer to the maximum size, growth will slow down. From 4K to 5K will be really fast; getting from 13K to 14K is going to take very, very long.

What basically happens when you decrease the number of farmers, is that the city grows toward a different, lower maximum size. In this example, hiring 3 farmers could let the city grow to something like 12K. This means the difference between having 3 or 4 farmers when your city is only at 4K will not be that big, but as your city grows the difference gets larger. At 10K, the difference between having 3 or 4 farmers is huge.

Buildings that increase city size, such as a granary, will in addition increase the growth rate by 10%. So a city with natural max pop 14 and a granary will grow 10% faster than a city of max pop 15K without such buildings. Of course, the growth still slows down further and further as you get closer to the limit.

I hope this explanation helps.

Regarding liche versus honor-sworn: don't forget that the honor-sworn has an overland exorcism ability. However, the best S'Sirthe counter to liches is the Totem Spirit. The best Regency counter to the Totem Spirit is the Assassin. The S'Sirthe counter to Assassins is the Elder (Visions).

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-08-2010 07:18 AM]

LesserMinion
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I remember it being a somewhat one-sided encounter - I'd started out on an archipelago, which is a great defensive position, but it seems a lot worse than an island or a continental start, since there is usually nothing to settle and archipelagos are fairly underwhelming in some respects.

By the time I'd found anything to settle, the AI was in a strong enough position on one continent to spam me with liches. That game didn't end well.

As for growth, I'm sure I've seen a city with four farmers and 6000 people drop off to an absolutely tiny expansion rate, which picked up when I added a building. I'm pretty sure it should have had far more growth potential.

grobblewobble
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Oops, forgot, sorry.
When a city has very few buildings, growth rate drops dramatically.
You need at least one building for every 3000 inhabitants for
the city to keep growing at the normal rate. When you click the
farmer production in the city overview, it tells you "you should
add more buildings to encourage growth".

Archipelago is a very challenging starting position, and S'Sirthe
have an especially hard time because their ship has a high mana
upkeep, while archipelago can hardly produce any mana..

When you're up against liches, you should know that death stare
does not work against undead units. Mindshield also protects.
This is why the Totem Spirit is the best counter for the
S'Sirthe; it is undead.

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[Last edited by grobblewobble at 04-08-2010 07:15 PM]

Danjen02
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grobblewobble wrote:
You need at least one building for every 3000 inhabitants for
the city to keep growing at the normal rate. When you click the
farmer production in the city overview, it tells you "you should
add more buildings to encourage growth".

I was never aware of this. There should be a list of stuff like this posted.

Also, is that why citizens generally dislike your rule if a city just sits there?

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