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Radiant
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icon Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Please use this thread to suggest new or modified units or buildings for races, and to talk about their balance (e.g. suggesting that a unit is too strong or too weak).

Please use the other thread for bug reports.


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11-27-2007 at 03:10 PM
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grobblewobble
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Thalara: +25% movement bonus, rounded up is a bit too good I think. Better to round down perhaps?

Elves: something needs to be done about the planar gate, suggestions anyone? In combination with astral warrior and cloudship it means too much mobility.

Chimera: high HP/def/res make it too good for it's price, needs -1 something.

Phantom: not scary enough, enchantress is a lot more attractive in the department of magical attacks. Needs a little boost.
Enchantress: very good, maybe give it -1 something.
EDIT: It looks like the enchantress and phantom have already been tweaked, haven't they? My apologies! :blush

shambling mound: stats are almost identical to the (much cheaper and faster) werewolf now. Needs some improvement.

overland attacks: weakened a bit too much

Lumberjack: as the only unit that can improve terrain and get an additional reward for doing it, this unit deserves +2 upkeep imo. That would also make the druid/lumberjack chain a bit more expensive.

EDIT:
About the planar gate: what if you're only allowed to teleport to other elf cities (pure elf, not elf alliances)? Would that be a good solution?

Astral ranger: this unit has too many advantages I think:
- long range teleport and militant alone give it great strategic value (no one can leave his cities undefended!)
- shimmer and decent combat statistics ensure it has a useful role on the battlefield
- when you need a unit with high resistance and a non-magical attack, this is the best choice, too

I propose giving it +1 upkeep and -4 resistance. The first two advantages are enough for 1 unit imo.

The shadowdancer, at the other hand, is a bit on the weak side. How about giving it +2 resistance? That would mean it replaces the astral ranger as the best non-magical/high resist unit.

About the Slayer: almost the "solution to everything" for the dwarves. How about giving it -1 movement?

About Bulky units: they get large penalties for defending cities. Why was that again? Bulky already puts hard restrictions on movement. IIRC it had to do with the possibility of defending cities with units like Galleons or the Kraken. But doing something like that is expensive and purely defensive, let's not forget.

About the dwarf AI: when they have a coastal city, they will often build those battleships (forgot the name) and leave them next to the city where they have been built. A waste of money, these things should sail out and bombard or attack something.

Another thing about bombarding: currently it is not possible to bombard a city if there are no units defending it. If there are hidden units defending it and you know it, but you're unable to see them, it is still not possible. Wouldn't it make sense if you were able to bombard the city?

By the way, the unit graphics have been improved, havent they? Nice work! :thumbsup

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 11-28-2007 02:48 PM]
11-27-2007 at 11:22 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
So the only way to cure plague is with a healer unit?
Mending: should it cure the plague or not? Currently it doesn't, to ensure healer units are useful enough. The chaos spell Toxic Touch cures and prevents plague and poison, but of course doesn't restore damage.

Rejuvenation (body 1) will not cure plague, but will prevent your units from dying from it.

Healing pools also help against both poison and plague. Heroes can learn the regeneration skill, which prevents it from dying from plague (or poison) as well.

What is everybody's opinion on this? Should mending cure plague and poison, or just heal HP as it does right now?

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 11-28-2007 09:50 PM]
11-28-2007 at 09:39 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
With respect to the Elves' overdose of mobility... I put some thoughts into this, and it would be possible to move the Cloudship to the Theria. It fits their philosophy, at any rate. On the other hand, the Theria's Ethereal Wall sees little use as it doesn't mesh well with their other units, so might then be moved to the elves. Is this a feasible solution?

Also, there seems to be no strong reason why an Astral Ranger should be a militant unit.

Finally, wrt Mending, there's also Poison, which is subject to the same cures as Plague is.


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11-28-2007 at 10:36 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Switching cloudship and ethereal wall sounds good to me. It will mean the behemoth and the channeler become more interesting.
Making astrals non-militant will certainly reduce their power.

If the planar gate will work the same in the next version, it should have more upkeep. It's no exaggeration to say it's the best building in the game. Besides monoliths. :P

Lightning strike, sunbeam and winter's chill are fine the way they are now, but flamelance seems a bit weak.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 11-29-2007 11:22 AM]
11-29-2007 at 11:06 AM
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Radiant
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
grobblewobble wrote:
Switching cloudship and ethereal wall sounds good to me.
Okay, done.
It will also give you the nasty combo of hiding five Marksmen behind an Ethereal Wall. It always bothered me that the wall was not all that useful given the Theria don't really have missile troops (other than a few heavy hitters that don't need a wall).


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[Last edited by Radiant at 11-29-2007 01:06 PM]
11-29-2007 at 01:05 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Good point.

The broken one should be either weaker, have more upkeep or take longer to build.

The slinger at the other hand should be improved a little.

Miners should cost more production, it's too easy to build a horde of them now.
11-29-2007 at 01:44 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
If you're interested what can be done with heroes, check this save file. It took a lot of patience to build up Isolde like this, but it sure pays off! (Bellerophon is not really impressive yet, but slowly getting stronger as well.) Once these heroes reach a certain level, they start to gain experience very fast. Tireless and storm run lets them fight many enemies in a single turn, or quickly retreat if necessary. With spellshaping they gained some nifty "impossible" enchantments, too. Lightning Strike softens up the toughest enemies. Plague is a weakness, but with regeneration they don't die from it. Reaper's Touch is another weakness, luckily the AI doesn't seem to have it.

The city of Useziru shows what agriculture can do. :cool

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 11-30-2007 03:40 PM]
11-30-2007 at 03:11 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
This is more of an 'abstract' post. In the course of a game against a single enemy, how many cities do you usually end up with? I usually have 3-4. Which brings me to my real question: Although cities are an important aspect of the game, are they perhaps focused on too much?

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12-01-2007 at 08:02 AM
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Radiant
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Danjen02 wrote:
This is more of an 'abstract' post. In the course of a game against a single enemy, how many cities do you usually end up with?

That depends on your strategy. I tend to build a lot more cities than Grobble does, for instance.

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12-01-2007 at 09:54 AM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Danjen, could you please explain your question? Of course cities are an important aspect of the game, but how do you mean "focused on too much"? Do you mean you feel you spend too little time with combat, for example?

Personally, I usually build one or two additional cities. This is partly because I'm too lazy to build more, and not good enough at multitasking. :lol

How many extra cities you should ideally build, is situational. If the enemy is really close, it is often best to focus on a direct attack and forget about long-term planning like new cities. On a large island map the situation is opposite. The real question, in the end, is how much gold and mana you need to eliminate the enemy..

Edit:
Survival team: I just realized I almost never build those. How about giving it an additional skill or two? Immunity for example, maybe even amphibious?

Cavalry: last time I checked, the charge bonus was barely noticeable in combat. I couldnt find the combat simulator any more, (has it been disabled?), so it's hard to say if this has changed yet or not. At any rate, how about letting cavalry units get an attack bonus on open terrain? I know this idea has been rejected before, but can't remember why.

Bulky: I'd like to explain the reason why I complained about the city defense penalty before a little better. The reason is, that while this penalty is reasonably appropriate in the case of units like Galleons, War Machines and Dragons, there also exist bulky units for which it doesn't make sense. I'm talking about the cannon, the ballista and especially the ethereal wall here. Punishing the use of these units as city defense with a penalty feels wrong in my opinion.

Call the void:
This spell is probably too good. IMO it should devour your own cities as well as anything else. Now that it doesn't, your own cities can never be attacked once they are surrounded by the void. If you build a growth monolith before casting the spell, the city size will remain reasonably good as well.
Edit: for the sake of argument, attached saved game shows an example of abusing call the void.

Eldano: major canc 60 mana -> 50 mana?

Insect Swarms: can do with a little less health I think.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-03-2007 12:43 PM]
12-01-2007 at 06:59 PM
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Goblins: they only lose when they have no units left anywhere. Imo it would be more fair if they lose when all of their tribes are destroyed AND all of their cities are captured.
12-11-2007 at 12:35 PM
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Radiant
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grobblewobble wrote:
Goblins: they only lose when they have no units left anywhere. Imo it would be more fair if they lose when all of their tribes are destroyed AND all of their cities are captured.

Agreed. Goblins need a bit more work because they're really very different.

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12-11-2007 at 11:29 PM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Hi to everyone°°°/!!!

I'm sorry to start my contribution asking, but I can't find the unit list in my download :(.

I'd like to know if the creation menù could be enhanced a bit with some pick like the ones in MoM, but including also disavantages (thus it would be much more like MoO2, I suppose).

Just to make an example, possible advantages:

* recruiter (2 perks): everytime you summon heroes, you get three instead of two of them and overall upkeep of your units is decreased by 12%.
* master archivist (3 perks): you take 50% more research and are able to randomly select 3 spells not in your list
* trader (2 perks): 12% more gold from merchants
* architect (1 perk): every building of road, watchtowers, fortresses or action on mutable landscape only takes 2 turns.

Possible disadvantages:

* jinxed (2 perks): if random events are activated, bad ones just happen twice as often; if not, you get the normal chance and no good events.
* Magically Inept (1 perk): you only produce half the normal amount of mana you'd produce on your own (i.e.: selecting three spheres of the same kind, you would only get 1 mana/round)
* Baroque taste (3 perks): you tend to favor form over substance, basically gaining the opposite of what you'd get worshipping Rathya the Artisan
* Uneducated (4 perks): due to your naivety with magic, your overall research is halved, you get double chance of backfire and you lose five random spells
* Atheist (2 perks): you don't worship any good, nor you are entitled to pick one when discovering the appropriate spell

You are allowed to stay below 0 (getting an extra 10% of the overall score for every -1 you get), but not above.

Oh, well... I suppose I overspoke or at least it seemed I didn't enjoy this game as it was: nothing more false, it brought me fond memories of playing Barcia's classics :).

Once I get my hands down on the s'sirthe unit list, I'd glad to throw in some more idea (anticipating one: stench skill, just like D&D's troglodites looks fine, ne?).

Thanks in advance for your kind attention and again for creating such an interesting game :)!!

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01-19-2008 at 11:57 PM
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Radiant
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Third Eye wrote:
I'd like to know if the creation menù could be enhanced a bit with some pick like the ones in MoM, but including also disavantages (thus it would be much more like MoO2, I suppose).
That's actually precisely what the several gods are for.


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01-20-2008 at 08:03 AM
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Third Eye
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
They are a fine idea, but is there any other idea concerning personalization?

A screen where you could select pieces of furniture to reflect your leadership would be a fine addiction, even if just picking them from a list would be ok for now.

A bookcase would represent taking the master archivist skill, a merchant scale to be get the trader skill, an overdecorated window for baroque taste, a broken idol to be an atheist and so on.

And, sorry to repeat myself, but I really can't find the unitlist.htm ^^^'...

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01-20-2008 at 01:40 PM
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Radiant
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Third Eye wrote:
A screen where you could select pieces of furniture to reflect your leadership would be a fine addiction, even if just picking them from a list would be ok for now.
That would be fun, if we can locate an artist willing to draw them. It does not really have high priority.

And, sorry to repeat myself, but I really can't find the unitlist.htm ^^^'...
I'll fix that. We're still in beta, after all.

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01-20-2008 at 06:15 PM
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Neathro
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
WHAAAAT?! Cloudships are theria? Noooooo! My favorite unit on elves... Another advantage for [The person I usually play against.:~( ].

Also, I think the astral troops were quite fairly balanced before all this (Limited teleports, not in fog of war...)

But I think it was possible to planar gate to and from any city you own.
So, on topic(I think.) The planar gate should only go to your elf citys that also have planars?
Still... the cloudship mod is almost enough to make me become Theria. As an afterthought, why not use the old ver instead. I still have it... :D
As another afterthought, sorry for being offtopic so long.

Verdict: NOOOOO! I hate you radiant! :lol :angry

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02-04-2008 at 10:13 AM
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Third Eye
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
I've become a huge fan of s'sirthe, yet I find trailblazers far too similar to braves; I'd at least lower their attack, defense and hit points granting them three extra movements in order to have better cheap scouts. Granting them the eagle eyes while they become elite should finish the job.

Braves as a no-militant unit can be a wise choice, but having them became militat as they are veteran (I don't know if radiant is ok with giving veteran some extra perk, I'd make so for almost every unit).

Personally I never found myself using hunters, they could be a fine addition to one's army, but to me they are just lacking: javeliners are cheaper and more combact effective given their cost, not to mention they are the only militant basic unit; their other skill are generally found in my heroes. Raising their ranged attack would make a better job.

Similarly, I'd give the warleader some ranged attack: I keep putting then in the back lines, due to their poor fighting abilities when compared with guardians, relentless and honor-sworn. As the computer tends to attack this weaker units, I have to defend it in order not to lose their useful blessing skill, so I suggest either giving them some more decent defensive skills (hit points or defence are fine: one expects a demihuman warleader to stand his own on the battlefield, unless he has some magical skill) or to give them some ranged attack.

Coming to ranged attacks, Elders are just fine, while Shamans should require some improvement: even if I can't see when I'll immolate one of them to get visions, this could be an interesting perk: what about giving them some sort of healing once they reach the veteran level? I can't see why the computer likes to put them by default in my building queue once they are available, mph...

Locust-swarms are a nice idea to implement something close to missiles in civilization and its various clones, but giving them the optional arsonist skill and making them vanish once you use it would be fitting and tactically interesting.

Relentless are fine, though having them I'd prefer them losing an experience level instead of becoming undead. I can understand the revenant thing, but that could work for regency's troops, with my lizies I feel it a bit out of theme.

Imho some cavalry units, able to use the cavalry perk even on water, like the aligator riders, would be cool.

Speaking of buildings, altar of battle could give the teacher or arena benefits to units stationed in city, without recurring to the ancestral spirit I don't see so fit for them.

Not living near water a s'sirthe towns lose both the explorers and the only building giving them extra cash: isn't it too much? Or else you could consider swamps as water, giving the otherwise not so useful plantshaper some value.

Finally: hidden village isn't a tad too powerful? I mean, using rush build I could get it quite soon, not requiring troops to mantain my city, thus saving much more than its 3 gold pieces upkeep.

With this, trying a monolith rush it's not such an unfeasable strategy: building tanner, palisade and hidden village it's rather quick and not wasting time on a huge army frees you a lot of production and gold, so going straight to the grand monolith is even quickier.

I don't know: prohibiting hidden villages from building grand monolith could be a viable option, as it would be giving hidden village extra requirements (a swamp in close proximity, just to reuse the plantshaper idea).

I don't like much liking any road/fortress or watchtower building unit: what about making zaradan or braves or another amphibious unit able to build small ports?

With a port a sailing unit could gain an extra movement just stepping by and refitting or a ground unit could walk a tile into the sea; they would like wooden wharfs or piet starting from the land. Optionally, camping a unit there gives you extra 1 food (if close to city) and 1 extra gold.

Ok, ok.. I wrote too much... Thanks again for your kind attention :)!!!

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02-11-2008 at 01:24 AM
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"I Like this Demosthenes, I Like the way He thinks..."

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03-08-2008 at 09:37 AM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Some features I would like to see/random things I thought of:
Editor Improvement
The level editor isn't very snazzy, and I think this could be improved quite a bit later on. Especially the scripting. It's nice to have, but could really do with some more fluidity of use. I don't think it is of very high priority, though. (on a side note: how do you set it up so that each player starts in a randomized city and has starting units appropriate to his or her race, like on random maps?)

Flexible Unit Stats
Depending on how hard-coded unit stats are, it may be a possibility to change units on a particular map. Like, for instance, say I wanted my custom map to have swordmen with +1 melee damage, -2 defense, gain True Strike, the graphic of Slayer, rename to 'elite warrior', AND change the building it requires. It would allow customization along that of Blizzard Entertainment's realtime strategy games, and allow for custom game types to emerge, like tower defense, if you've even seen it. Either way, someone will be happy for this kind of thing. If this does happen, it would be up to the responsibility of the map maker to balance any changes in units. Again, it depends on how flexible everything is.

Profiles
By having a profile, you could save stats to it: high scores, favorite races, favorite spell spheres, favorite spells, win/lose percentage, favorite unit, etc, etc. This would make stat junkies like me happy. ;) Also, in the game setup, you could preserve the settings based off of what the profile last used. I find it so annoying that I have to re-enter the same settings every single game. The best part is that for local grudge matches, the win/loss percentages would be saved so that you can really rub it in. :smile

Extended Use of Random Map
You have a good randomization algorithm, but why not add more features? Other things to add could be the density of map features (Leylines, monasteries); commonly on small maps, a friend and I could usually find about 4 features around our immediate base, all of which were about 5 hexes away. Density could positively or negatively affect this.
Also, drop down menus are two-clicks to use, and thus waste time and effort. Why not do a slider-bar, as it would be more efficient, and thus faster to get into the gameplay?
Maybe you could also add a randomize random map settings? (if thats not clear, I mean you click the button and it randomizes the map size, weather, etc in one click :P)

Different Region Types
Currently, I would classify everything as 'temperate'. But what if the map was located in an arctic region, where winters would be longer and deadlier? I've always enjoyed the prospect of having a large lake freeze over, and temporarily become a path, but they hardly have staying power and aren't tactically sound as most units take damage on them. Therefore, with different regions this would become a possibility: volcanic areas could have 'volatile' terrain, but be rich in monetary value (or something), tropics could have a higher chance of disease; arctic locales longer winters (as above), etc.

More Terrain
If you could think of any more types to add, that is (well technically there is 120 combinations of work/food/magic available on terrain, but that's beside the point). Maybe there could be different tilesets altogether, like an underworld themed terrain set. All the stats would be kept the same, but the names and graphics of each would be different. Instead of a marsh, you could add like a 'pools of souls'; it would add mana and still plague same as a marsh. If the files are set up correctly, maybe this could be expanded further to have a regular person able to make their own tilesets. (This may or may not be that difficult; you would, I assume, just have to include a variable in each place that references the current terrain name.) Also, the tilesets could have ambient lighting as well (you know, like a soft purple hue or whatnot.)

New School of Magic
You have 4 spheres available, and that is probably fine the way it is. BUT, it would be kind of neat if a 5th one was added. Obviously, this would entail a LOT of work (graphics, balancing, AI usage, etc.)

Nevertheless, suggestions for it include:
Druid - Spells would change terrain, summon animals, and modify weather, with a focus on the natural. It could have good synergy with the Theria or S'srithe.
Necromancy - Spells would drain, weaken, and sacrifice units, with a focus on undead. It could have good synergy with the Regency.
Enchantment - Spells would enchance units, cities, and have global effects, with a focus on enchantments giving passive keyword abilities (such as flying, or mountaineer).

Compliments
By the way, this game is so very, very addictive. Me and a friend played one map for 6 whole hours, straight into the wee hours of the morning, and the only clue to the time was the rising sun. :-O
(I won by the way. :P)

Also, I'd like to emphasize just how much I love the flavour of the Regency! Those few lines of description go so deep. As far as I can tell, it's a composite race - what you are isn't nearly as important as who you are. Your species is irrelevant as long as you have the wealth and power to back it up, otherwise you are indentured for the duration of your life (or unlife!). Poor in life? Well, now you're a lowly ghoul in death. You were rich and powerful? Great, that makes you a valuable addition to the Regency elite, as you can now be a free-thinking wraith and command the mindless ghouls.

I also like how one of their subthemes is long-term sacrifice for a short-term goal. This usually runs more flavorfully and in general, easier to execute with short-minded races (tradionally in Fantasy, goblinoids). Surprisingly, this too was done well within the Regency: they can destroy forests, permanently scarring the landscape for their next ostentatious project. Or perhaps they would like to enslave their populace to create their extravagent castle faster?

That said, I find them extremely hard to play as; this would explain why they are disabled on the lower difficulties. However, I think this race is incredible on the flavor department. :)

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[Last edited by Danjen02 at 03-26-2008 10:30 PM]
03-25-2008 at 02:44 AM
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wonkyth
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I agree with almost all of that.

I could say more, but chances are that someone else will say it for me...

:D :D :D

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03-29-2008 at 01:57 AM
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
I actually talked about my idea of a spell that gives Eagle Eye on the other Leylines thread. It's on page 3 of that thread, just go there to see it.
06-17-2008 at 11:36 PM
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wonkyth
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Something I noticed while going back over one of the older versions : the Theria only have two militant units.

while this may make them more evenly mached, it certainly is annoying.
Obviously Theria are a late game team - Asin they don't work well until the late part of the game where everyone has there best troops.
The fact that they only have two militant units just means it's impossible to play on ArchMage unless you play on a huge map with not many players.
The enemy always come up while you're building your big, expensive buildings and smush you with stage three units, while you only have
stage one, or sometimes two units.
even if you only build troops to defend yourself, you still lose, 'cos they are always one step ahead.

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06-20-2008 at 10:34 PM
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raen
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
With Goblins, I'm looking at Clawed Furys, and I don't see any particular advantage to them. Ogres are slower, but they're tanks and have 7 melee while Furys have 5. They have more movement, but if you want to emphasize them as hit and runners, I would say decrease their armor and up their resistance, because most goblin units have low resistance anyway.
I think you should up Tribes' resistance to 5 also, because otherwise repeated spells screw them entirely. 5 isn't a lot, but I think it's enough :smile
06-24-2008 at 03:33 AM
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wonkyth
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Try out a Clawed Fury on a Sopoliph( or whatever you call them),
the armour piercing really works.

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06-30-2008 at 01:14 AM
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grobblewobble
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Third Eye wrote:
Personally I never found myself using hunters, they could be a fine addition to one's army, but to me they are just lacking: javeliners are cheaper and more combact effective given their cost,
The hunter also grants the army the ability to pass mountains (guide + rock ranger), so it is a specialist unit..
08-13-2008 at 04:40 PM
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Danjen02
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
I think that Modify Weather is a really cool, if somewhat limited ability. Having it available only to the Theria from a mid-level unit makes it relatively unused. I think there should be at least one other race that uses it; I'm thinking that from a flavor perspective, either the Regency (a frost shade, for example) or the S'sirthe (a shaman) would work out well.

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09-11-2008 at 10:16 PM
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Radiant
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
That is a good point (although the counterpoint is that every race is intended to have a few unique abilities). It doesn't really fit with the Regency's attitude, as it's hard to tell what personal power you might gain from making it snow; but it is in line with S'sirthe spiritualism.


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09-11-2008 at 11:20 PM
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Danjen02
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icon Re: Leylines: the Balance Thread (0)  
Is there a spell that grants Eagle Eye yet? If there isn't there should be for either Mind or Body, and at least rank two if temporary, or rank three if permanent.

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09-11-2008 at 11:57 PM
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