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File: monkeytutor_300.hold (33.2 KB)
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This is a hold to show you most, if not all, of the elements. It's a fairly easy hold, just to give you a feel for the elements. It's also my first hold, so it's kind of a milestone for me. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it!

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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This isn't a very difficult hold, but I don't think it's particularly instructive, either.

Net result: a lot of not very hard rooms, at least one that requires you to understand behavior that is totally uncovered in the tutorial, and a secret room that nobody should ever have to play.

I give the hold a 4 for fun and 2 brains.

Josh

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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jbluestein wrote:
a secret room that nobody should ever have to play.

If you're talking about Monsters and Potions: Once North Septence West, I agree.

Good luck, Rabscuttle.

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Jason
Level: Smitemaster
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It seems that it is impossible to get to "More Assorted Elements". HAs?

EDIT: I think there is a secret room in "More Assorted Elements" so the post-master rooms are unreachable.

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[Last edited by Jason at 10-07-2007 02:09 PM]

bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
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I've checked in the editor, and have found a level called "More Assorted Elements". For some reason, I cannot get to that level.

EDIT: In response to Jason.

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[Last edited by bomber50 at 10-07-2007 02:11 PM]

Doom
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I confirm that the hold is masterable.

This isn't too good a tutorial in my book either. More or less everything is introduced very hastily and hardly used at all after the intro room. And the order of introducing new elements is also messed up. (see Tricks and Traps: 4N1E - "Here you have some tar. Leave some monsters alive when you exit." Wait, when did we get introduced to tar, one of most complicated elements in DROD? Duh. At least there aren't any mothers here <_< Besides, if you enter with your sword pointing west there's no dialog at all here...)

Some of the level exit locations were also a bit hard to see at first.

And yes, that secret was nasty. Very easy, yet very tedious.

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
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Registered: 01-19-2007
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And some information is also erroneus. The best example is what he says about tunnels(In case you noticed it, as I can imagine many people missing it due to the darkness).

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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Completed this... I agree it seems rushed, and the area numbers are wrong. I also concur that the tunnel description is wrong.

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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Syntax wrote:
Completed this... I agree it seems rushed, and the area numbers are wrong. I also concur that the tunnel description is wrong.

And, of course, it's got a whole level missing - I guess one end level script command is b0rked in there.

And I agree, it's not very good - neither as a tutorial nor as a normal hold...

np: The Orb - Majestic (U.F.Orb Remastered)

____________________________
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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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Chaco wrote:

jbluestein wrote:
a secret room that nobody should ever have to play.

If you're talking about Monsters and Potions: Once North Septence West, I agree.

Good luck, Rabscuttle.

The room was kind of interesting. It admittedly could have had fewer rows of roaches, but just remember that it could also have had more.
Also, I hope the spider will ignore clone switches when it comes back up.

MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 01-03-2005
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Not a good tutorial. The structure of this hold is not well designed, the puzzles are ok but not interesting at all. It's not a complete desaster though. This hold teaches some of the basic things of DROD and maybe it can entertain newbies for a short while, but there are better tutorials than this.

All in all I think this hold deserves a 4.

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[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 10-08-2007 07:07 PM]

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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Am I right in thinking that FMaST: 1N is unscoreable, because of the fact that you enter on a master wall? If so, it'd be nice to have it marked as such.

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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I think starting on a master wall is fine as long as you don't have to cross it again to exit. In the room in question you exit to the north, so the room should be ok. (the spider will invalidate the room if I am wrong)

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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Rabscuttle wrote:
I think starting on a master wall is fine as long as you don't have to cross it again to exit. In the room in question you exit to the north, so the room should be ok. (the spider will invalidate the room if I am wrong)

The spider will invalidate the room; but it's irritating, then, to have a room that (a) you high-score and then lose every time you pass through it, and (b) keeps showing up on your list of unscored rooms.

Is it true, though, that starting on a master wall doesn't invalidate a demo? (I thought it did.)

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2497
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I thought there was a room like that already, where you started on a master wall, but could leave the room via scripting. I have no idea where it is :/

But the spider should only care if you actually step onto it. If you start on it, it's no different than starting on a closed door, or a player-role waterskipper starting on land.

Anyhoo, the spider seems to have validated the demos for that room now.

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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The unreachable level needs to be made either accessible or unscorable.

Giant-Nator22
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 2
Registered: 09-07-2007
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One of the rooms in Tricks and Traps is like, impossible. I mean that either you can lock you self out, or you can lock yourself in. OR, you can kill youself by facing south, or then you can kill all the roaches and leave yourself bored. It's not a choice.

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Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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You should say which room you are talking about, and if you are having trouble solving it you should ask about it on the hints and solutions boards. I'd guess you are talking about 3N1E and that room is certainly possible.

Giant-Nator22
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 2
Registered: 09-07-2007
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Yes, you're right, I'll bet it is possible, and it should be easier. Here are a few points about why I don't like the overall hold:

*This is a tutorial. I should not need help!

*Unlike others said, it is informative only in the most basic way.

*And 'Monkey' somehow got his area numbers mixed up. I mean like AREA 1, then AREA 3. It's just, confusing.

This hold is hard, non-presentative, and barely informative.

Nice try Monkey!

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I just know, that somebody, hates me. Just, completely hates me. Or worse, everyone.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 10-14-2006
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Hmmm... I just played this hold so I could post some help for Giant-Nator on the H&S board.

I'd like to offer a fresh perspective on the room in question (Tricks and Traps 3N1E). If Monkey had called his hold "Quick'n'Easy Puzzles" instead of "Tutorial," I would have said this particular room was the best room in the entire hold. Nice little lynchpin to it.

As others have said, this hold does not work as a tutorial. Good teaching is much harder than it looks. Monkey, for your next hold, don't try to make another tutorial. Make those "Quick'n'Easy Puzzles" instead...

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
Good teaching is much harder than it looks.

I bet Elfstone could give a speech about that topic...

Also, I wonder what a tutorial hold made by her would be like?

np: The Orb - Supernova At The End Of The Universe (Adventures Beyond The Ultraworld Deluxe Edition (Disc 1))

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Giant-Nator22
Level: Roachling
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Registered: 09-07-2007
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There's only two things I'm thankful for in that secret room at..... Once North, Septence West.

*I'm glad there is the UNDO button.

*I'm glad there are no roach queens.


If the opposites of the points had been implemented, the room would be impossible.

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I just know, that somebody, hates me. Just, completely hates me. Or worse, everyone.

TFMurphy
Level: Smitemaster
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Not really. There's more than enough checkpoints (and they're not really *necessary*, and roach queens would've actually been easier.

Giant-Nator22
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 2
Registered: 09-07-2007
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Yeah, that's real nice! But what about the roach queens? Are you glad about none of them?


I just know I'm gonna lose another rank point for this.




____________________________
I just know, that somebody, hates me. Just, completely hates me. Or worse, everyone.

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[Last edited by Giant-Nator22 at 10-13-2007 05:05 PM]

TFMurphy
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Like I said, roach queens would've been easier. They don't attack directly (unless there's another thing they're trying to run away from, which isn't in this room), and they only create more roaches when they detect you, and you have a Speed Potion and an Invisibility Potion in the room.

If that's not enough, you also have a Clone Potion to abuse (which isn't necessary to complete the room, but it *is* more efficient... although more boring than not using it).

If you replaced all the roaches in that room with roach queens, you'd just need to run along each row killing queens and switch back to your clone near the entrance every time Turn 30 rolls around. And even if you make a mistake, not many eggs are going to be spawned, and you could kill all the eggs in your vicinity before they even hatch.

Monkey
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 190
Registered: 03-21-2006
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Wait a second, why was this hold uploaded?

I didn't mean for this to be uploaded after it sank to the second page.

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Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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Monkey wrote:
Wait a second, why was this hold uploaded?

Because you submitted it to us HAs at the beginning of June?

Granted, you never posted again in the HA chat after the end of June, but if you actually didn't want it promoted you should have told us sometime in the following three months...

(But then I'd really have to ask why you submitted it at all - submitting holds is meant for finished holds, not for beta testing...)

np: Underworld - Beautiful Burnout (Oblivion With Bells)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Also, why is he commenting on this just now, when it was uploaded 12 days ago? Is it because he only wishes it were true, after seeing the criticism?

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Monkey
Level: Master Delver

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Registered: 03-21-2006
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No, it's because I just found it today.

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lurking

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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Monkey wrote:
No, it's because I just found it today.

Hmmm... how about an (semi-)automated PM to a hold's author when it gets promoted, similar to when it gets rejected?

(Then again, I think that what seems to be forgetting about your own hold submission isn't going to happen *that* often... )

np: Underworld - Ring Road (Oblivion With Bells)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 10-20-2007 09:52 AM]