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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Bridges
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The_Red_Hawk
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I think a game element that would be sort of like a bridge would be nice. It could cross over other pathways, and Beethro can go under or over it, but he can't get on or off (well, maybe he could jump off) but it would be a replacement for using those combinations of doors that sometimes don't have enough space. It would be as long as wanted and indestructible to The Flow. (I think this part has the most puzzle possibility e.g. get across the bridge before the ends are swallowed up)

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11-28-2003 at 03:21 PM
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agaricus5
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I think a game element that would be sort of like a bridge would be nice. It could cross over other pathways, and Beethro can go under or over it, but he can't get on or off (well, maybe he could jump off) but it would be a replacement for using those combinations of doors that sometimes don't have enough space. It would be as long as wanted and indestructible to The Flow. (I think this part has the most puzzle possibility e.g. get across the bridge before the ends are swallowed up)
This is just encouraging multi-floor rooms again. While it's interesting and allows for more complex rooms, the temptation to hide things beneath such things may become irrisistible, and will just make it harder for people because no-one can know what is beneath the bridge before they get there and find out by trial and error.

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11-28-2003 at 05:42 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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I'm assuming that architects willk be sensible enough not to do it. Even so, it would be a very good way of hiding things that need to be unseen by the player, But, if you like, it could be that nothing is allowed under a bridge until the person starts playing.

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11-28-2003 at 06:47 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Maybe we could see through them. But then, that takes away a lot of the "hidden" puzzle possibility there (not that I'm saying that tar doesn't do a good job, but I don't think many people like it very much).

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11-28-2003 at 07:04 PM
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eytanz
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I think what people don't like is hidden things, more than they dislike tar. I'm strongly of the opinion that the only things that should be hidden are -

A - Bonuses & Secrets.
B - Things that you can figure out by some means other than trial and error.

The best tar mazes, for instance, are ones which follow rule B - where, say, there's a pattern under the tar you can figure out if you're paying attention. Otherwise, it's not a terrible puzzle, but it's just not a good one either.

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11-28-2003 at 11:03 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Then how about Glass Bridges? They're the same, and you can see them and see through them, and if Beethro moves his sword over it it crumbles.

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11-28-2003 at 11:34 PM
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zex20913
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I don't think you need to crumble the bridge. That would add TOO much puzzle confusion ability.

But I do like the idea. This could be a way to create an annoying maze or something, or just a fun room.

I do have questions though, and some may seem obvious, just want some clarification.

1. Will monsters follow the same pattern? I.E., can Beethro be off of a bridge and next to a monster on a bridge and be safe?

2. If so, could Beethro kill that monster? Could Beethro go under that monster?

3. Are the bridges able to have corners, or would they just be straight?

4. Would brains direct to or under bridges?

5. Along the same lines as #2, could Beethro be over a monster?

6. Would flying monsters be able to go on the bridge without traversing one of the two endpoints?

That's all for now.

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11-29-2003 at 05:16 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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1. Will monsters follow the same pattern? I.E., can Beethro be off of a bridge and next to a monster on a bridge and be safe?

If I understand you correctly, monsters can go over bridges too, and jumping off of bridges is perfectly possible for both Beethro and monsters. However, if Beethro was on top, he would be safe.

2. If so, could Beethro kill that monster? Could Beethro go under that monster?

Not from below. His sword would go under the bridge, but he could go under it. The monster, unbrained, would not go after him, but when brained will go around. From above, however, it would be fine.

3. Are the bridges able to have corners, or would they just be straight?

I suppose you could put two bridges together and form something that curved. Placing a bridge would be like placing a serpent.

4. Would brains direct to or under bridges?

Yes.

5. Along the same lines as #2, could Beethro be over a monster?


Yes.

6. Would flying monsters be able to go on the bridge without traversing one of the two endpoints?

Of course.....

I might have missed something, so ask me again if I was unclear - I really don't have much time here.....



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11-29-2003 at 05:28 AM
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krammer
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I think this would be a better feature for DROD3D (if it ever comes out, that is) as the player could then see what was undrneath and it would be less confusing and easier to represent graphically. After all, there's little real point in adding an extra dimension if you don't utilise it in some way.

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11-29-2003 at 02:01 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Well, as they're made of glass, we still could see through it anyways. Besides, I've tried the 3D demo and I really don't like it. (I think the roaches look like little beads). The graphics in AE are a lot better.

Still, I think bridges will have lots of puzzle possibility, and I guess it's ok for 3D.....

Wouldn't it still be hard to see under?

By the way, aren't AE and 3D going to be exactly the same?

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11-29-2003 at 02:12 PM
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NoahT
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
By the way, aren't AE and 3D going to be exactly the same?

No, not really. AE is meant for the level editor, while 3-D is just like 1.5 with 3-D graphics.

I'll let other members answer the other two questions. :closedeyes

-Noah

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11-29-2003 at 09:56 PM
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eytanz
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I think that if the 3D production is ever completed, it will be updated to be the most recent version of DROD available at the time - probably 1.7, if not a future one. Doesn't make much sense to have it be 1.5.

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11-30-2003 at 12:24 AM
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NoahT
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True. 1.5 is pretty much outdated by now.

-Noah

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11-30-2003 at 05:42 AM
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Sokko
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If I may, I could use one of my SUPER ASCII TEXT DRAWINGS to represent a see-through glass bridge, and my own interpretation of what this would be like.

--|           |-------
  |           |
  #===========#
  |           |
--|           |-------

|- are walls
# is stairs
= is the bridge


The "stairs" are just the start and end points for the bridge, and would usually be placed next to walls. Beethro can only get on the bridge via the stairs, and he can only get off in the same manner; no jumping off the sides, or else we'd have Beethro landing on top of monsters which opens up a whole new can of worms. Almost anything can pass freely under or over the main part of the bridge, and two things can exist in the same space if one is on the bridge and one is under it. In this case, only the part of the "under" thing that is visible through the "over" thing's transparent parts would be drawn; it should be enough to know what the monster under the bridge is. Unbrained monsters will still head straight for Beethro's position; once they get right underneath him, they just madly jump up and down until he moves. ;) Brained monsters will attempt to find the shortest path onto the bridge and go there. While standing on the bridge, Beethro can only smite monsters that are also on the bridge, or on the stairs. The living tar cannot grow over a bridge, for the obvious reason that it can only be one square wide.

Sounds like a good idea!

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11-30-2003 at 12:55 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Sokko wrote:
Sokko wrote: Beethro can only smite monsters that are also on the bridge, or on the stairs.


Why couldn't Beethro reach down? because he can reach up and take out tar babies on walls.....

The living tar cannot grow over a bridge, for the obvious reason that it can only be one square wide.

Why couldn't it be wider? It can curve all over the place, and the placing method will be similar to the serpent. It can be hidden by tar in the normal way, like tar can grow over walls, but it can't grow back *unless* 2 squares wide.

The "stairs" are just the start and end points for the bridge, and would usually be placed next to walls.


Does that mean that serpents can't climb bridges? Because I can't picture them climbing up stairs. I thought it would maybe be an arch bridge. If something is needed to repel serpents, you just have to add a force arrow or something.

No jumping off the sides, or else we'd have Beethro landing on top of monsters which opens up a whole new can of worms.

All right, but how about only when there are no monsters there? Oh - and flying monsters will not regard the bridge as an obstacle, but will go straight for Beethro.

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 11-30-2003 at 02:41 PM GMT]

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11-30-2003 at 02:40 PM
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DiMono
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I've been wondering about the possibility of bridges for quite some time as well. Here's what I see for them:

They can be any size or shape, but must be realistically supported. This means no bridges that turn 180 degrees without supporting pillars, as they would collapse from overbalancing.

Bridges come with pillars that support them, which are 1 square large and treated as an obstacle. The architect can put these wherever they want, as long as the bridge is supported.

Most bridges have handrails, so you wouldn't be able to jump over the side.

Brains and Wraithwings act as expected.

Serpents can traverse the bridges. After all, they can climb trees.

You can see what is under the bridges. Narrowing the images of the monsters and Beethro while on the bridge will allow you to see what's both on and under the bridge at once.

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11-30-2003 at 09:52 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Yes, pillars sound good. How about at every corner?

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11-30-2003 at 10:44 PM
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agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
They can be any size or shape, but must be realistically supported. This means no bridges that turn 180 degrees without supporting pillars, as they would collapse from overbalancing.

Bridges come with pillars that support them, which are 1 square large and treated as an obstacle. The architect can put these wherever they want, as long as the bridge is supported.
Hee hee...

This is a topic I have an interest in. ;)

Now... what is the definition of "supported"? How would this be defined? Since glass bridges will certainly not have high tensile strength, they should not be able to resist too much compression. This means that if there are not enough supports, the bridge should collapse under its own weight. Really, there should be a fixed number of pillars needed by a bridge, or else the bridge will become structurally unstable and will defy the laws of physics if it doesn't collapse. Perhaps one pillar every 3 squares will be sufficient (although more is obviously recommended), but you could also have it so that if an architect placed too few pillars under a section, anything that steps on that weak area will break all unsupported squares of that section and fall through.

Serpents can traverse the bridges. After all, they can climb trees.
When was the last time you saw a 500 foot serpent, as tall and thick as Beethro, weighing a hundred tons, climb a tree?

:)

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11-30-2003 at 11:26 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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agaricus5 wrote: Really, there should be a fixed number of pillars needed by a bridge, or else the bridge will become structurally unstable and will defy the laws of physics if it doesn't collapse. Perhaps one pillar every 3 squares will be sufficient (although more is obviously recommended), but you could also have it so that if an architect placed too few pillars under a section, anything that steps on that weak area will break all unsupported squares of that section and fall through.


How about every 5 squares? But I like collapsing on the weak area.

When was the last time you saw a 500 foot serpent, as tall and thick as Beethro, weighing a hundred tons, climb a tree?

Never.

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11-30-2003 at 11:40 PM
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NoahT
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Unless the tree is as big as 100 redwoods. :w00t

Anyway, this idea sounds very good, and a better way of having multiple elevations on a single level than my multi-floor level idea.

-Noah

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12-01-2003 at 03:01 AM
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agaricus5
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NoahT wrote:
Unless the tree is as big as 100 redwoods. :w00t

Yeah, but how will the serpent climb? Is it strong enough to support its own body weight?

Wait... that's a question for the biologists sitting behind the Eighth sorting out all the different types of wildlife found there.

Erik..... :P

[Edited by agaricus5 on 12-02-2003 at 02:15 PM GMT]

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12-02-2003 at 12:21 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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I wonder..........

Can any of the other stuff climb trees for that matter?



P.S. Agaricus, I think you meant to use colon-D. Is that right?

- you used :p.....

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12-02-2003 at 03:28 AM
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Oneiromancer
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No, colon-p used to make the smiley with the tongue sticking out...now it is colon-P. At least I think it changed. If not, he just forgot to capitalize the P.

Game on,

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12-02-2003 at 03:55 AM
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agaricus5
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Oneiromancer wrote:
No, colon-p used to make the smiley with the tongue sticking out...now it is colon-P. At least I think it changed. If not, he just forgot to capitalize the P.

Game on,
Thanks for pointing it out. I've changed it.

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12-02-2003 at 02:15 PM
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DiMono
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Well, it seems obvious to me that things of the same scale will function the same. Since I've often seen one foot snakes rear up half their body length, it must be possible for 500 foot snakes to rear up 250 feet, thus eliminating the need for climbing entirely :D

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12-04-2003 at 05:36 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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But what about the fact the the tree won't likely hold the serpent's weight?

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12-04-2003 at 06:47 PM
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agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
Well, it seems obvious to me that things of the same scale will function the same. Since I've often seen one foot snakes rear up half their body length, it must be possible for 500 foot snakes to rear up 250 feet, thus eliminating the need for climbing entirely :D
Technically, no.

Do not forget that biologically, the serpent may not have adapted muscles strong enough to lift itself about 250 feet into the air (assuming it is more than 250 feet long), especially if it is a ground-based animal.

At some point, the amount of lifting power the serpent has will be not enough to hold up the extra increase in mass of its body due to there being more muscles in the body to lift.

Oh, and according to your argument, if the serpent were to grow larger, its skin and internal organs should also grow by the same scale, and since this growth is volumetric, the increase is the cube of the scale factor increase, meaning that eventually, the serpent's weight will outpace the serpent's increase in muscular power.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 12-05-2003 at 01:51 PM GMT]

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12-05-2003 at 01:45 PM
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Oneiromancer
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I think the Bad Movie Physics website (link: Google) has some interesting discussions on why creatures that are somehow grown to very large sizes or shrunk to very small sizes would have so many problems that they wouldn't be able to survive. It's a pretty interesting read.

Game on,

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12-05-2003 at 03:57 PM
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DiMono
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I disbelieve everything said since my last post. After all, we all know from watching Xena: Warrior Princess that giant people are not only viable, but agile, so why not snakes?

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12-05-2003 at 04:45 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Physics, physics, physics.....



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12-05-2003 at 05:22 PM
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