Kevin
Level: Master Delver
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File: Long Room.hold (3.4 KB)
Downloaded 158 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Well, I can't quite compete with 3.25 x 10^32 orb activations, but I'll post this hold I made a little while ago anyway. This hold requires 6.59 x 10^26 orb activations. Each orb has 2 doors in front of it, and the Nth orb opens the first door of the N+1th orb, closes the second door of the N+1th orb, opens the second door of the N+2th orb, and closes the first door of the N-1th and N-2th orbs. With 128 orbs, this requires 6.59x10^26 orb activations.

[Edited by Kevin on 01-16-2004 at 08:37 PM GMT]

DiMono
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Watcher wrote:
Never underestimate the power of a bored mathematician!

I can not only top 2 trillion, I can top that number squared. The attached hold is an implementation of bibelot's orb puzzle, which he mentioned earlier in the thread. This version, however, contains 108 orbs. Solving the room from the given starting position requires 2^108 - 1 orb-bangings. This number is equal to 324,518,553,658,426,726,783,156,020,576,265. Due to the long corridor at the bottom, the number of moves is more than 40 times as many. That gives the solution a length of nearly 13 decillion.

...you sure you're not compensating for something?

I mean, damn, that's a lot of banging...

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Watcher
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DiMono wrote:
...you sure you're not compensating for something?

I mean, damn, that's a lot of banging...

First rule of internet conversation: Anything can be misunderstood.

First corollary to first rule of internet conversation: The misunderstood phrase can be interpreted as being related to sex.

I really should be more careful about what I write...

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DiMono
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Watcher wrote:
First rule of internet conversation: Anything can be misunderstood.

First corollary to first rule of internet conversation: The misunderstood phrase can be interpreted as being related to sex.

I really should be more careful about what I write...

I'm sorry about that, I was just in a really weird mood and couldn't let that one go. If it makes you feel any better, people have done the same thing to me a few times when I wasn't being careful.

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Watcher
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DiMono wrote:

Watcher wrote:
First rule of internet conversation: Anything can be misunderstood.

First corollary to first rule of internet conversation: The misunderstood phrase can be interpreted as being related to sex.

I really should be more careful about what I write...

I'm sorry about that, I was just in a really weird mood and couldn't let that one go. If it makes you feel any better, people have done the same thing to me a few times when I wasn't being careful.

It's perfectly all right, I thought it was pretty funny, actually. I think I've done similar things myself. Anyway, it just seemed an appropriate place to recall the First Rule, don't you think?

*shuffles off to find posts by DiMono that can be misunderstood*

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joker5
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Yeah, I think that's close to as long as it gets.

Let's just say that DROD has the potential to be close to infinite for one room and leave it at that.

~joker5


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RoboBob3000
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Close to infinite? Baloney! That would be an uncompletable room. There's gotta be a finite solution, just no easy way to figure it out.

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joker5
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Not baloney, salami. It's close enough to infinite that it isn't practical to solve the room in a lifetime.

~joker5

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eytanz
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That's still pretty far from infinite.

Infinitely far from infinite, in fact.

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Cale
Level: Roachling
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Certainly the room takes a finite number of steps, and in fact, it's very easy to determine *how* to solve it (it's incredibly mechanical, and what you need to do at any point is obvious), but still, the comment that it would take more than a lifetime is an incredible understatement.

20 billion years is often cited as an upper bound for the age of the universe. Assuming that you were really quite fast, and it took you on average one second to hit the next switch in the sequence, it would still take 5.14*10^14 times the age of the universe to complete the room.

Quite a long time, that. Still, it'd be nice to see even longer rooms. A room together with a proof of maximality would be quite interesting, if difficult to provide. :)

DiMono
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Maybe we could have one contest for maximum length using orbs, and a seperate contest for using snakes, since those seem to be the two leading methods of creating length? And then another without using either?

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The_Red_Hawk
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How about making rooms that do *not* require you to wait in one spot, move back and forth, spin, etc.?

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levelthirteen
Level: Master Delver
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File: Long_Room.class (3.2 KB)
Downloaded 143 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Attached is a small application that prints out some info on Eternity.hold and Long Room.hold. Needs Java 1.2 or higher to run.

recursive
Level: Roachling
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File: Keep of Least Common Multiples.hold (1.8 KB)
Downloaded 128 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I just started playing DROD a week or two ago, and recently found this forum. For some reason, this topic fascinates me, even though it's been dead for months. I may be late to the party, but I brought a contribution anyway. I am using a snake method, which requires approximately 3.34364766 × 10^22 turns to complete

Here are my snake lengths:
2x2x2x5
2x3x3x3
2x11
2x7
2x13
2x17
2x19
2x23
2x29
2x31
2x37
2x41
2x43
2x47
2x53
2x57

I am pretty sure the snakes could be packed a little more efficiently, giving another decimal place or three of turns required, but to my knowledge, this is the best snake method room offered in this topic, so I thought I'd share it.

RoboBob3000
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Nice work. One quick observation though. There are actually two squares at which a snake can be trapped when the orb is struck: when the head is sitting on the first door, and when the snake is sitting on the open space. I can't begin to think how this would affect your calculations, though.

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recursive
Level: Roachling
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File: LCM Keep.hold (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 121 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I thought someone might notice that. Actually, it doesn't affect the calculations by more than +/-1. (which is less than my precision anyway) Since all the snakes have paths with even lengths, you will never see a situation in which one snake's head is in the "open" square, and simultaneously another snake's head is on top of the gate. This means that there is a window of 2 turns during which you can hit the orb. But it doesn't allow any sneaky shortcuts.

I've been working on the concept a little more, and improved it to 4.62762353 × 10^22. [edit: I think I forgot a factor of 2, that should be 9.25524707 × 10^22 I think]

Here are my path lengths:
2*2*2*2*2*2
2*3*3*3
2*5*5
2*7
2*11
2*13
2*17
2*19
2*23
2*29
2*31
2*37
2*47
2*53
2*57
2*61

I've always been a math geek, but for some reason this topic fascinates me to no end, even though it appears everyone else is done with it.

[Edited by recursive on 09-15-2004 at 05:43 AM GMT]

RoboBob3000
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I think that's because we hit some sort of phenominal peak with a hanoi room (not to say that we hit *the* peak). Maybe this topic could be revived if someone comes up with a new way to implement long rooms.

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recursive
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I just noticed my technique is basically the same as the snake spiral holds, which apparently I failed to download earlier. I didn't mean to rip it off. I had the idea independently, I swear!

DiMono
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Don't worry, we all ripped it off from somewhere.

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wackhead_uk
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The only way to do a really large move hold is with snakes anyway... it's impossible to not rip off something else.

DiMono
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Nobody's bested the Towers of Hanoi room yet

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Doom
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DiMono wrote:
Nobody's bested the Towers of Hanoi room yet

Not yet

Actually I think that only way to beat a Hanoi room is to make a longer Hanoi room...

Damn orb assigning, this takes forever...

Doom
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My experiment failed. My 140 orb room didn't work because I couldn't make you start the chain from beginning after every orb (too tight placement). I also have a 106 orb room (eternity had 108), that is just a remake of eternity, having over 2 times longer passageway at the bottom and a few other changes. It's move count is propably not very far from eternity's so I don't even post it.

The 140 orb room might have worked if I had patience to make an average of 70 orb assignments per orb! Maybe I'll try it when I don't have anything else to do.

agaricus5
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File: Eternity 2.hold (7.7 KB)
Downloaded 152 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

I think I may have an entry, although it looks ugly.

This room is a Hanoi-style room with Force Arrows, and has 145 orbs. It requires 2^145 - 1 orb hits to complete, or...

...44,601,490,397,061,246,283,071,436,545,296,723,011,960,831...

... which is 4.46 * 10^43 to 3 s.f.

However, the total number of moves needed is quite a bit larger.

Moves required...

...To get to the first orb = 315.

...To move to and hit all the orbs (ignoring all the side squares - imagine the orbs are in a very long row) = 2^147 + 2^146 - 298 = 2.68 * 10^44 moves to 3 s.f.

...For all rotations required (I don't know how to reduce this sequence) = ((2^126 - 1) + (2^108 - 1) + (2^90 - 1) + (2^72 - 1) + (2^54 - 1) + (2^36 - 1) + (2^18 - 1) * 8 = 6.81 * 10^38 moves to 3 s.f..

So, including assumptions, this room requires 2.67609623 * 10^44 moves to 9 s.f (This is what my calculator display can only display up to).

Including the bits that have been assumed non-existent, I think the total value comes up at around 268-270 quattuordecillion in American notation, or 268-270 septillion in British notation.

Of course, it or my calculations may be buggy, and it might not work.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:09-26-2004 at 05:11 PM]

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:09-26-2004 at 05:11 PM]

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:09-26-2004 at 10:32 PM]

Edit - This hold has a larger solution than the original Eternity by Watcher, but there is a bug in it that removes about 2^144 of the orb hits required to finish the room. Get the fixed version below.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:09-26-2004 at 10:49 PM]

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RoboBob3000
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And no checkpoints too. I hope you don't hit "r" along the way. That would be harsh.

Nicely done!

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wackhead_uk
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I know this could be considere off topic, but has anyone made a room that is long but is short enough so that people will actually want to complete it? I wouldnt want to do this one...

agaricus5
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wackhead_uk wrote:
I know this could be considere off topic, but has anyone made a room that is long but is short enough so that people will actually want to complete it? I wouldnt want to do this one...

That depends on what the definition of "long" is. I would think the constraint on length is actually more to do with the time required than the number of moves needed for the solution. If you gave me a choice between doing a room with a solution of 20000 moves, but which could be done in a few minutes, with very little effort, and a room that has a solution of 4000 moves, but which requires a lot of thought, skill and care to do, I'd prefer the first.

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agaricus5
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File: Eternity 2(2).hold (7.8 KB)
Downloaded 139 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

RoboBob3000 wrote:
And no checkpoints too. I hope you don't hit "r" along the way. That would be harsh.

Alright then. Checkpoints (Lots of them) have been installed in this new version of Eternity 2.

I also changed it slightly to stop an unintended solution removing about 2^144 of the orb hits required to finish the room.

Nicely done!

Thanks!



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Doom
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File: Long Rooms v2.hold (2.3 KB)
Downloaded 139 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Updated version
- made third room possible

Here's a small hold with 3 (almost) playable rooms with long solutions. It's anyone edit, if you get bored in any of the rooms before seeing the rest.

First one is just annoying hackslashing and takes around 2000-2500 moves.

Second one is a simple trick with brain and few roaches and takes around 18000-20000 moves.

Third one is a room idea from Bavato's dungeon and should take around 37000-40000 moves to complete

edit:said levels, meant rooms
edit:corrected move amounts

[Edited by Doom at Local Time:09-27-2004 at 05:39 PM]

[Edited by Doom at Local Time:09-27-2004 at 05:46 PM]

Stefan
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Doom wrote:
Here's a small hold with 3 (almost) playable rooms with long solutions.

The third room seems to be impossible, so you're absolutely right about the rooms being almost playable...

First one is just annoying hackslashing and takes around 3000 moves.

My demo is about 2200 moves long.

Second one is a simple trick with brain and few roaches and takes around 10000-11000 moves.

I think it requires more (my demo is approx. 18500 moves long and I think it's quite optimal except for the occasional bumping into walls).

Third one is a room idea from Bavato's dungeon and should take around 60000-65000 moves to complete

My demo would have been around 37000 moves if the room had been possible. The problem is that you cannot kill both the roaches you've gathered and the SE roach queen. However, I may have missed something...

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