Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
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Congrats larry

Hikari
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 438
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
It is unlikely that either hold will be updated, as both holds are conquerable. Typically, impossible and unreachable rooms are marked non-highscorable on CaravelNet.

Checking your highscores (the trophy icon under your post) shows that you have conquered all the highscorable rooms in each hold.

That's not the issue I'm asking about, though. I never said they weren't conquerable; I'm asking if there's any chance that someone could go in and prod a few checkboxes in each to make them *masterable*. I'm sure I'm not the only player who does their best to make sure that as soon as a hold is conquered, they go back to master it. It's incredibly frustrating to have these two holds sitting in my 'Unmastered' list, being the *only* two conquered holds left in there amidst the ones I've not reached the end of yet.

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Caravel Official Holds Progress:

Remlin
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 181
Registered: 04-28-2005
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Agreed with Hikari. If being masterable isn't part of the HA review process, it should be, and it would be nice if old holds that are broken in this respect be repaired if possible.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
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I'm sorry you're both frustrated.

Being masterable IS part of the HA review process. Since I've been here, I have not promoted any holds that were not masterable. These two particular holds were placed on the Holds board before the HA process was started.

If I had the tools to break into a hold that I didn't create and make those changes, and the administrative support to get those holds updated, I'd certainly do it for you right now. It sounds really easy.

I'm sorry about my negative sounding reply. I just wanted to give you a realistic answer. Unfortunately, I'm frustrated too. Only a few people on that long list of HAs are actually helping out with the process. We are working with almost no admin support. HA-related bug reports and questions to the folks higher up at Caravel have gone unanswered and not even acknowledged for a month.

In the best of all possible worlds, this post will inspire someone to lend a hand. Here's hoping...

Remlin
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 181
Registered: 04-28-2005
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Ok, thanks for the explanation. Your original reply sounded more like "No because we don't think it needs it" rather than "I wish but we don't have the admin support we need".

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Ah, bureaucracy...

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NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Jatopian wrote:
Ah, bureaucracy...

The ironic thing is that I though the HA's were supposed to be exempt from bureaucracy...

As a side note, here's a few extra points as sympathy, CSR.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 01-25-2008 09:30 AM]

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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NiroZ wrote:

Jatopian wrote:
Ah, bureaucracy...

The ironic thing is that I though the HA's were supposed to be exempt from bureaucracy...

As a side note, here's a few extra points as sympathy, CSR.

The HAs aren't controlled by the Bureaucracy (insofar as any forum member or position is controlled in any case). But we're also not admins in the more general sense -- we don't have admin privileges to fiddle with hold files. All we can do is review holds that are up for promotion and eventually press the proper button that automatically adds the hold to the Holds board.

This all works pretty well. What works less well is updating holds after the fact. There's no automated mechanism to do it, so whenever there's a need, we need to involve an actual admin, and usually Schik is the guy.

We also don't, as a rule, have the tools that allow us to edit other players' holds without changing the hold ID or otherwise doing things that would invalidate high scores. Individual HAs may have these tools by virtue of the fact that they're toolsmiths, or part of the DROD dev team, but we can't really rely on that.

All of which is just a way of reinforcing what CSR was saying: we're happy to update holds that have problems, but it's not an automatic process and it involves help from the board admins. And for holds that aren't truly broken, it's a lower priority.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Hikari
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 438
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OK... I'm pretty sure that *someone* out there among the admins (not Hold Admins, I mean the actual forum admins) has the tools to modify these *specific* holds, at least. In their initial forms, there was a bug present in all of them that was making them repeatedly appear at the end of the Holds list in DROD, even after being downloaded multiple times, that was fixed by someone.

Likewise, one of them (dugedion, I think) had to be modified twice for solvability, as there was a scripting error right at the start of Level 4 involving a broken Halph, that kept the player stuck in the first room, and there was no exit stairway in Level 12. I can't remember who actually did the hold-hacking to get in there and fix it, though. I'm not even positive that it was ever actually stated in the forum.

Not that I'm trying to push anything, or anything like that, but AFAIK, these *are* the last of the pre-HA issues left on the Holds board that weren't very much on purpose (as in the case of Bad Evil Restaurant).

____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

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[Last edited by Hikari at 01-29-2008 09:09 PM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Hikari wrote:
OK... I'm pretty sure that *someone* out there among the admins (not Hold Admins, I mean the actual forum admins) has the tools to modify these *specific* holds, at least. In their initial forms, there was a bug present in all of them that was making them repeatedly appear at the end of the Holds list in DROD, even after being downloaded multiple times, that was fixed by someone.

All these fixes relied on one or two specific people who are currently inactive; or else they relied on Mike (who is busily working on future Caravel projects and this is not a high priority for him) or myself (who lost the tools necessary to make the changes over the summer when my computer crashed).

Please be patient - the changes have been added to a to-do list, and they will be done eventually. But at the moment both HAs and developers are severly over-strained for time, so don't expect this to happen anytime soon.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

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[Last edited by eytanz at 02-26-2008 07:03 AM]

Hikari
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eytanz wrote:
Please be patient - the changes have been added to a to-do list, and they will be done eventually. But at the moment both HAs and developers are severly over-strained for time, so don't expect this to happen anytime soon.

That right there was all I was really asking for, a kinda-sorta nod and an 'It will happen' statement. Thanks muchly!

____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

dart193
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 03-25-2008
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Oh my god! I confused. So now i think i don t want upload my hold.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3170
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If you have made a new hold, why don't you make a new topic and attach your hold? Then people will play it and comment.

You don't have to submit your hold to the HAs, if you don't want to.

dart193
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 03-25-2008
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
If you have made a new hold, why don't you make a new topic and attach your hold? Then people will play it and comment.

You don't have to submit your hold to the HAs, if you don't want to.

I am very novice and i dont know what can i do. And i from Russia and understand English very bad.

dart193
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 03-25-2008
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VIPCOOL wrote:
Here's how the system works:
You post a hold on the architecture forum.
People test and comment on it
You improve the hold.
You send it to the HA's for promotion
They put it on the holds board where everyone can play.

If you can't understand english very well, try using a translater or something like that.

Thank you very much. For this time i download DROD tCB.

dart193
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 03-25-2008
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If you are Russian, why you didn't wrote Russian?

dart193
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 03-25-2008
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Yes, you are right.
PS: hm, i didn't knew, what russian letters are support here.

Hikari
Level: Smiter

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I'd just like to thank the HAs (Schik and Stefan especially) for clearing up those unmasterable holds. Thanks muchly, fellows, now nobody has to have blemishes like those on their Unmastered Holds lists.




____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

Elfstone
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1285
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rman I think it is the correct etiquette for a new Hold to either be put into Architecture for a while, or to have other players Beta test it before you submit to the HAs. If you have thoroughly tested your Hold yourself, neither process should take very long.

____________________________
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mxvladi
Level: Smitemaster
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Every hold has to be tested.

mrimer
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It is a requirement to test your hold if you want it to be considered for inclusion on the Holds Board. "Test", in the broadest sense here, means the author has played through their entire hold and can thereby verify it is solvable and masterable.

Please playtest your own hold. If a hold architect refuses to play their own hold, I personally think it should be rejected immediately by the HAs. I don't want them to waste time on it. After all, what player wants another junk hold on the list that the author himself doesn't want to play?

____________________________
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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 05-25-2008 05:24 PM]

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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rman wrote:
I completed and mastered my hold.

What you need to do is one of the following:

1) Create a thread (your own thread) on the Architecture board and attach your hold to it. You will then discover the interface that lets you submit it to the HAs.

1a) It's a really good idea to wait a while -- when you post to the architecture board, interested people will download and test your hold and offer comments. These comments should be weighed and acted on if necessary PRIOR to submission to HAs.

1b) (I'm editorializing here...) Strongly consider whether the
DROD world needs another tutorial.

2) If you have a Caravel membership, you can create a beta board and invite testers, and then submit it from there.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
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Why not try to make some instructional puzzles highlighting certain features. And then take it from there?

Mr. Slice
Level: Disabled
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rman wrote:

jbluestein wrote:
1b) (I'm editorializing here...) Strongly consider whether the
DROD world needs another tutorial.
Josh

Hmm... but only things that I make well are tutorials!

Interesting. Try doing scattershot rooms and putting elements in random areas and see if you can make a puzzle out of that. If you don't know how to make a puzzle of random elements, either make one pre-planned, or make a puzzle up on the spot and try to perfect it. I'd also recommend looking the holds board for some good holds that have good puzzles. You can identify good puzzle holds by it's comments, ratings, or it's Hold Karma.

____________________________
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[Last edited by Mr. Slice at 05-26-2008 07:03 PM]

Mr. Slice
Level: Disabled
Rank Points: 140
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Huh. I don't know why that is. Oh well, I changed it to the more accurate post icon.

____________________________
"To see or to hear is to know, but to
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Mr. Slice
Level: Disabled
Rank Points: 140
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I still don't know why that should be, but we should no longer derail the thread.

____________________________
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do is to understand"

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[Last edited by Mr. Slice at 05-26-2008 07:10 PM]

calamarain
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 933
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There's also the Construction Methods guide, not to mention the DROD Idea Generators.

____________________________
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Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
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I've noticed that people who think the only thing they can make are tutorials are dead wrong. Fact is, no one can make a good tutorial if they can't make a good regular hold. They just have to have that level of understanding.

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DROD architecture idea generator

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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mrimer wrote:
It is a requirement to test your hold if you want it to be considered for inclusion on the Holds Board. "Test", in the broadest sense here, means the author has played through their entire hold and can thereby verify it is solvable and masterable.

Is there, ah, any procedure in place in the architecture process to ensure that this is the case? That is, to ensure that the author (or, at worst, someone else) has played through the entire hold?

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
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Tahnan wrote:

mrimer wrote:
It is a requirement to test your hold if you want it to be considered for inclusion on the Holds Board. "Test", in the broadest sense here, means the author has played through their entire hold and can thereby verify it is solvable and masterable.

Is there, ah, any procedure in place in the architecture process to ensure that this is the case? That is, to ensure that the author (or, at worst, someone else) has played through the entire hold?

Not really, no. Although it's a guarantee that holds won't promoted until someone has played through them, because two HAs have to provide Yes votes.

We would prefer to not be the FIRST people to do this, but, well, I wanted a pony when I was a kid also.

Truthfully speaking, most people are good about this. I think that the only ones who don't test their holds are relatively inexperienced architects (who nevertheless manage to craft some pretty good puzzles that are only occasionally impossible).

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck