eytanz
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Blondbeard wrote:
Please feel free to mod me down to zero if you really dislike what I say, but I think it's utterly unfair to give a raiting of 2 to a hold if you can see that it's a quality hold (a hold with unique conscepts where lots of time and devotion has been put into the hold). To quote myself from another post:

"I just realized that there is another important factor to voting for me, and that is the quality of the hold. If a hold obviously is a piece of devotion, hard work and imagination I would never give it a raiting below 7. There are some examples of this. Real quality holds I just don't think is funny. I don't want to hurt any architect by naming them, but I think I can saftely say that larrymurks Fun Park is one of these holds. That is because I absolutely love most of what Larry have produced.

With Fun Park I found the rooms very tedious, and didn't get any satisfaction from solving them. If someone forced me to complete the hold and then forced me to rate I would probably give it a fun raiting of 3 or 4.

The reason for me not to rate a hold like this is the quality of it. It happens to not suit my tastes, yet I can see that it's a very good hold. Thus, when this happens it seems as if the only fair thing I can do is not to vote."

I think a quality of a hold includes the experience it offers people. A hold may have good workmanship, but be low quality because it is unenjoyable. I *want* the rating to reflect this information, because when I'm looking for a hold to play, I want to know whether I'm likely to enjoy it or not, *not* whether I'm likely to admire the architect's hold-building skills.

Again, it's fine if you feel differently and rate it differently. But I maintain my (and other people's) right to vote on the holistic experience.

It strikes me that it would be interesting, in addition to the mean rating, to give the standard deviation. That will make a visible difference between holds that get a 5 because everyone agrees they are on the low end of mediocre, and holds that get a 5 because half the people love them and half the people hate them.

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Blondbeard
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eytanz wrote:

Again, it's fine if you feel differently and rate it differently. But I maintain my (and other people's) right to vote on the holistic experience.

It strikes me that it would be interesting, in addition to the mean rating, to give the standard deviation. That will make a visible difference between holds that get a 5 because everyone agrees they are on the low end of mediocre, and holds that get a 5 because half the people love them and half the people hate them.

You're absolutely right. People even have the right to use a ten sided die to rate holds, although I would find that very unfair.

Your idea about standard deviation is very interesting.

silver
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It would be amusing if by a combination of moderator action and/or self-handled edits and deletes, you could get the conversation moved here http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=12114 where it belongs


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michthro
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Banjooie wrote:
If someone doesn't like a hold because it is too hard, they have the right to vote it down. God help me.

I disagree. Difficulty and Overall are separate ratings. God help all architects if every 10-year old rates down holds that are too difficult *for them*.

Btw, I'm not saying everyone should give this hold a 9 like I did. Yes, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's an average and all that. There's also such a thing as being reasonable, and there's such a thing as "this hold does not deserve a 2". I'm not going to try and define it, but you know what I mean.

Replying to what eytanz said while I was typing: What if 90% of people generally rate difficult holds lower. How do I find good workmanship then? What I'm getting at is that a hold should be rated according to the kind of hold it is. So, given that the hold has a difficulty rating of 9.5, is it difficult because the author packed in as many monsters as he could find, or because of very well thought out puzzles? Someone who doesn't like 9-brain holds needn't look at the overall rating to know that they're not going to like it, but if they rate it down because they don't like the difficulty, they confuse people who do like hard holds, and look at the rating as an indication of quality, *given that it's difficult*.

Remlin
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This thread is filled with claims about how many people gave perfect 10s and how someone gave a 4 and then lowered it. Where is this information coming from? Serious question.

Blondbeard
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Remlin wrote:
This thread is filled with claims about how many people gave perfect 10s and how someone gave a 4 and then lowered it. Where is this information coming from? Serious question.

That's a very justified question. I have kept an eye on this hold. The perfect 10s where not hard to spot. Those are for certain, although I don't know if they have been changed. The 4 is less certain. When I went to bed the hold had a total raiting of 9 with eight voters, and when I woke up it had a raiting of 8.4 with nine voters. I didn't claim someone had given the hold a four, but I suspected it. A few hours later the raiting sank to 7.7, without any new voter. That probably means that either one person lowered his raiting 8 steps, or that two peoples lowered their raiting four steps each. That seemed like a pretty large change.

By the way: silver is very right. This part of the thread really ought to be moved.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-27-2006 10:00 PM]

Syntax
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Just discount the lowest 5-10% of the votes. No-one votes too high, but it eliminates those who vote too low unless it's a trend.

Banjooie
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I like the part where we're trying to put this hold and Smitemaster's Selections on the same level in some bizarre attempt to claim that these two things are at all equal.

Anyway: I can understand playing three rooms of this hold, and going (lol spoiler)


And I have to admit, that's a very strikingly poor way to start a hold. It simply /is not what you should be starting with/.

Some of these rooms are admittedly brilliant. But once again: If somebody chooses to say 'I feel that you shouldn't start a hold like that' and votes it a 4, let them. Bavato's was hard, but had a slightly less ridiculous curve. Perfection was...insane, but you knew from the outset it was going to be insane, and it's aesthetically pleasing, as well as the plot and canon elements.

Anyway, if the vast majority of the DROD populace downvotes it, all that means is: A vast majority of the DROD populace does not like this hold.

Which is the entire point of a voting system that /anyone can use/.

If you're really hellbent on not missing any good holds, you may very well have to play the bad ones.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 09-27-2006 10:36 PM]

michthro
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Banjooie wrote:
I like the part where we're trying to put this hold and Smitemaster's Selections on the same level in some bizarre attempt to claim that these two things are at all equal.

Huh? This hold is just as good as some SmS holds, without the voice-acting etc., if that's what's confusing you.

Anyway: I can understand playing three rooms of this hold, and going (lol spoiler)

Click here to view the secret text

×"Wow, the first actual room is a pile of roaches, guards, and orbs. I die within five seconds, and there's no real explanation how to do it! BEST HOLD EVER! *1*

Again, I don't follow. You're not making any sense, unless you mean "can't" instead of "can", in which case, no-one said that. If it's sarcasm, who said the first room is what makes it? As I said in the Architecture thread, the first actual room is not the best room, and the fact that it's a bottleneck might be a problem. However, it's not the typical newbie pile of roaches, guards and orbs, or for that matter, the pointless monster piles that can be found in some official holds. There is an actual puzzle element.

Anyway, if the vast majority of the DROD populace downvotes it, all that means is: A vast majority of the DROD populace does not like this hold.

Which is the entire point of a voting system that /anyone can use/.

True, but the system is far from perfect. Too far. As you say, anyone who has never played DROD has the "right" to rate Perfection 1 and Bad evil restaurant 10. And I like this part about the "right" we all have to tear apart the time and talent that goes into some user-made holds. Is it your right that Rheb should put four months of his time and considerable talent into making a hold? Tell me, where do you think DROD would be without the better user-made holds? Do you really think KDD and JtRH would carry it? I'm not running them down, but DROD's replay value comes from the endless supply of user-made holds. Without that you'd play it for two months and then forget about it. So is it a good idea to discourage talented newcomers? Or don't you mind if eventually 99% of user-made holds are poor quality? Sarcastic comments about good holds by newcomers won't do DROD any good.

Tahnan
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Whoa. What?

First of all, Banjooie is completely right, in my opinion: it's quite easy to imagine someone getting intensely frustrated by the first room. It's not only intimidating, it's easy to feel that anything you do will get you killed.

But really, michthro, that last paragraph? Of course DROD is better for having user-made holds; I don't think anyone would argue that. The nature of art, however, is that tastes vary, and that everyone has opinions; so, yes, anyone and everyone has the right to build up, or tear down, any artist they like and any art they like. That's why we have a voting system. To be honest, if you don't like it, don't use it. Don't vote; don't look at the votes when deciding what holds to play.

In the meantime, contrary to what you seem to suggest, one person giving a vote of "2" isn't tearing apart Rheb; I'd like to hope that Rheb is too talented and too insightful to give up on hold construction because one person out of nine didn't like his hold; and I really, really think some people are just making too much of a deal out of a single bad vote.

eytanz
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michthro wrote:
So is it a good idea to discourage talented newcomers? Or don't you mind if eventually 99% of user-made holds are poor quality? Sarcastic comments about good holds by newcomers won't do DROD any good.

Seriously, this makes no sense at all.

The whole discussion here, as far as I understand it, is about outliers - people who vote away from the norm. If someone gets 8 9s and 1 4 that is hardly discouraging. If someone gets 5 4s and 5 9s, they should be thinking "hmmm - I obviously did something that really pleases some but not others. Do I do that again, or do I try to please everyone at the risk of pleasing no-one?". Neither of these is discouraging.

I just can't accept the view that we have to vote with consensus or risk censure. Sorry.

And I do feel sorry for Rheb, whose hold got stuck in the cross-fire here. I'm glad for him that you hold as high an opinion of his hold as you do. And if by "as good as some SmS holds" you mean "Halph Has a Bad Day" I'd agree - like HHaBD (if I give my own biased impression of it), it's a good hold that suffers from some deep flaws. I really hope Rheb releases another hold, and I also really hope he learns from the mistakes of this one - and I promise to post a detailed review once I complete it.

And one more thing about the general discussion - it's called "overall". Not "overall excluding difficulty". Just because difficulty is also rated on its own doesn't mean it isn't part of the overall score. It just means it's important enough to be ranked twice, once on its own.

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Banjooie
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As you say, anyone who has never played DROD has the "right" to rate Perfection 1 and Bad evil restaurant 10.

Yes. Yes they do.

They have the right to rate however they wish.

Blondbeard
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Well... To quote a famous section of the forum:
"Are you STUCK STUCK STUCK? About ready to uninstall DROD? About ready to uninstall the hard drive DROD was on and smash it? Well, first ask the friendly folks here what to do in that terrible room you hate so much."

It seems to me that if you really hate a room and are the least bit of curious about what lies ahead you ought to ask for a hint. After you have hit the orbs this room probably is the easiest room in the hold (except the one on level 1) . I have now posted a hint and a demo, and I hope that people who hate this room downloads that demo. All you have to do is watch it for about ten seconds, and then you know how to strike the orbs.

This is the topic with the demo: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=12167

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-28-2006 10:13 AM]

michthro
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eytanz wrote:

michthro wrote:
So is it a good idea to discourage talented newcomers? Or don't you mind if eventually 99% of user-made holds are poor quality? Sarcastic comments about good holds by newcomers won't do DROD any good.

Seriously, this makes no sense at all.

I'm referring to Banjooie's sarcasm:

:Anyway: I can understand playing three rooms of this hold, and going (lol spoiler)

Click here to view the secret text

×Wow, the first actual room is a pile of roaches, guards, and orbs. I die within five seconds, and there's no real explanation how to do it! BEST HOLD EVER! *1*

You seriously don't see how that could put off Rheb, and other potential architects who see it? Really.

Banjooie, please stop being ridiculous. No-one who's never even played DROD has the *right* to rate holds. Look up the meaning of the word "right". Just because there's nothing stopping them from registering and rating doesn't mean it's their right. I should hope that if such ratings were somehow picked up they'd be cancelled. You're saying:"Anything goes, absolutely and unconditionally. Literally." So it's ok to rate down a hold because you don't like some post by the architect? It's ok to rate everything except Bad evil restaurant 1 because you think that would be funny? And I know you're going to say yes, since you're claiming to believe that literally anything goes, but the point is it's simply not a good idea.

Tahnan, it's not about the one 2 or two 4s anymore. That's what started this argument. It's already been said that this discussion doesn't belong here. It's become a matter of whether difficulty should be rated twice, and whether it's a good idea to allow people to *literally* rate however they wish, since that could put off talented new architects. And let me spell it out once more: I'm not saying everyone should give it a 9. I'm saying:
-This hold, for instance, does not the deserve the insult of a 2 rating.
-Difficulty should not be rated twice.

And another repetition: It's funny how it's taken for granted that there will always be people like Rheb to provide us with good holds. "DROD is better for having user-made holds" is a massive understatement.

eytanz
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michthro wrote:

-This hold, for instance, does not the deserve the insult of a 2 rating.

That you're opinion. Mine too. But if someone disagrees, they should give it a 2, your opinion and mine notwithstanding.

-Difficulty should not be rated twice.

Here I just plain out disagree with you. Difficulty should be rated twice.

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eytanz
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Quick note - I have more to say on this, but I'm done hijacking this thread (sorry Rheb!). To read more on difficulty rating as part of the overall ranking, I direct you here

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-28-2006 02:06 PM]

Tahnan
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Hey, Rheb? Great hold. Keep up the good work.

(Note: I haven't rated the hold yet; that's because I'm still stuck on a few rooms on the first level, and will be until I'm able to start playing again. Watch this space.)

Schik
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I've played enough of the hold now that I feel justified in rating it. For a first hold, this is pretty amazing. Nice work!

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UrAvgAzn
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High scores say that there are 3 conquerors. Who are they?

Keep posting,

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Such grief, such joy, to live at all."
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Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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I'd guess Rheb, Blondbeard, michthro.

jbluestein
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OK, well...

I haven't conquered this hold yet. But I've made it as far as the Guard Tunnel (even beat the Entrance), so I feel victory potentially within my grasp.

But I was troubled by something I saw while poking around on earlier levels:



Thanks,
Josh

PS I'm rating this hold now...I feel I've played enough of it to accurately do so, although I may change my mind later. At the moment, the hold is a 9 with 9.5 brains of difficulty. I took off a point for Rebel Nest: Entrance, which I feel is a poor introduction to an otherwise excellent hold. Not that the room is bad, but it's very discouraging.

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Blondbeard
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I will give you a fair answer:

jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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Blondbeard wrote:
I will give you a fair answer:

Click here to view the secret text

×No, you won't have to replay any of the hold, but: you should NOT restore to The Tunnel, and search for the secret level 5.5 afterwords (which leads you to The Deeper Tunnel 5N1W). Instead you should use the staircase labled 4 which is behind a green door in a "secret" room in The Deeper Tunnel. That staircase will bring you to The Tunnel, and then everything is nice and neat.

The worst case scenario otherwise ought to be that you will have to replay one room (although that is a quite difficult one). I hope this makes sense.

OK, that's not too bad. I haven't actually solved most of the secret rooms on that level anyway, so it sounds like I'm in good shape. (I just realized that my comment that I had solved most of the secret rooms I've run into so far was pretty much completely false. I've solved the secret rooms in The Rebel Nest and one on The Deeper Tunnel. I have plenty left to worry about.)

Thanks,
Josh

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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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Well, I've conquered it. Excellent puzzles. I'm only at 45% secrets at the moment, though, so I have plenty of work to do.

I do have a question, though. It looks to me like part of Guard Tunnel: 2W has a trivial solution:



Anyway, I expect the secrets will keep me busy for a while...

Josh

____________________________
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jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster

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I have now mastered this hold. Excellent, excellent hold. Great puzzles. Some that I would definitely have never solved without hints...some just required me to get frustrated enough to ask for hints.

I stand by my initial rating of 9 with 9.5 brains of difficulty.

Another thing I want to note is that navigating is very easy -- it's possible to move back and forth between levels fairly easily (although I'd stay out of certain rooms like Guard Tunnel: Entrance. Once is enough.).

All in all, an excellent design and an excellent hold.

Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck