Chalks
Level: Master Delver

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ADOM (found here) is perhaps my favorite rpg of all time. I LOVE rpgs, I LOVE text based games, and I LOVE huge long complicated story lines. ADOM is the best. Plus, it's free.

If you liked nethack, you'll love this one. In my opinion, ADOM blows nethack out of the water. The story is better, the game is longer, and the whole thing is just plain cooler.

Best of all, the game is FREE!

I've spent literally hundreds of hours playing this game, and I STILL haven't gotten to the end of it. The thing is freaking huge. HUGE. But, there are plenty of mini quests throughout the whole game that you can do (if you're not into the huge quest thingy). Oh, and did I mention that it's free?

all in all, I love this game. I've probably spent more time with this one than any other game (save DROD).

Tim
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Ahum. I don't know what this game is yet, but some people on this thread like them as well...

-- Tim

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Chalks
Level: Master Delver

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bah. that's what I get for thinking that "surely I'm the only one who's ever played this obscure game"

and not using the search button...

Nillo
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I'd like to point out that I'm still playing it. I've even beaten it once! It only took me about 1673 tries...

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

skell
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I'm playing it for three/four years (with breaks), but I've never managed to be even close to the end. Nah, but this is the best Rogue-like game I've ever played...

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b0rsuk
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If by "best" you mean "most cliche" then yes, ADOM has the best story ever. After certain point repeating the same stuff in ADOM hurts so much I cannot bring myself to play it again. Seriously, what's so original in closing a gate of purple Chaos ? (yes, chaos must be always of purple color). Corruptions/mutations, nasty orcs, 1337 elves, tough dwarves.

In my opinion the story is, quite ironically, the biggest flaw in ADOM. Roguelikes are traditionally built around replayability, story - at least the way it's done in ADOM - kills that. Sometimes it's so bad that it forces you to spend potentially ridiculous amount of time searching for that VERY IMPORTANT item. I mean that I hate artificial bottlenecks, especially when amount of time I spend there is largely influenced by random factor. I especially hate Tower of Eternal Flames and Eternal Guardian bottlenecks, potentially very frustrating.
Oh, did I mention I hate time limits ?

You may get an impression I'm saying ADOM is a bad game. Not exactly. For a long time ADOM was my favourite roguelike, it's certainly more interesting and polished than Angbands. (Angbands are all about killing needlessly HUGE hordes of faceless enemies on needlessly HUGE levels). I've beaten ADOM twice or so, once with a bard and once with mindcrafter.
The truth is, I prefer Dungeon Crawl. Things specific to Dungeon Crawl that I like a lot:
- much more variety in randomly generated levels. In ADOM there are basically two: usual dungeon or cavern. In Crawl, there are much more, distinctive styles. Each branch of main dungeon has it's own style - default, Lair, Swamp, Hive, Orcish Mines, Vaults/Crypt, Snake Pit, Slime Pit, and more. Inhabitants vary.
- flexible, skill-based system. Skills are increased by usage. Instead of sticking blindly to one path, you are often tempted to learn something different, because, for example, you've found Book of Enchantments. B0rsuk loves such systems.
- Big variety in spells, area spells that last more than one turn, powerful spells that come with drawbacks, etc. Just play and see.
- more dungeon variety: lava you can't easily cross but you can shoot/see past it, secret passages not so trivial to find, multiple entrances to same level
- Even more variety in monsters: some are 3 or so times faster than you and use hit&run tactics (common large bats), dangerous spellcasters with multiple spells, immobile but devastating monsters like demiliches, monsters can use weapons, armors and misc items... Monsters have lots of special abilities
- interesting gods, with varying likes and dislikes, rewards blah blah. Paladin-ish god hates it when you use poison, for example.
- difficulty level fairly high, but I like challenge (outside of programming assignments, that is).
-weapons defined by more than just damage.
-less linear. It means a lot for me. Story is only vaguely present in Dungeon Crawl, but it's a game made to last.

http://dungeon-crawl.org/

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 02-18-2006 06:42 PM]

Banjooie
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b0rsuk forgets the Deathyaks.

Yeah, Dungeon Crawl's awesome. Mummy _____ for the win!

Krishh
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My favourite of the popular roguelikes are ADOM, Dungeon Crawl and Nethack, in that order, but since those have been discussed a lot already, I'd like to mention DoomRL. It goes against roguelike tradition in more ways in one. It's main appeal could be considered nostalgic value, but I enjoyed it, even though I've never played any version of doom. It's quite simple, as action-packed as a turnbased game can be (which is more then you might expect) and extremely fun. And it's the only roguelike I've actually beaten. (although the next version is adding more levels and level types, challenges and difficulty levels, so I'm not done with it yet)

skell
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b0rsuk wrote:
In my opinion the story is, quite ironically, the biggest flaw in ADOM. Roguelikes are traditionally built around replayability, story - at least the way it's done in ADOM - kills that. Sometimes it's so bad that it forces you to spend potentially ridiculous amount of time searching for that VERY IMPORTANT item. I mean that I hate artificial bottlenecks, especially when amount of time I spend there is largely influenced by random factor. I especially hate Tower of Eternal Flames and Eternal Guardian bottlenecks, potentially very frustrating.
Oh, did I mention I hate time limits ?

Yeah, I agree with you. The idea of "You must give 6 artifacts to guy, then be c- to speak with him, then do taht that that that that.. blah blah blah... don't forget about thoose stupid corruption---! Whoops, I'm whirling mass of pure chaos! How funny..." But the game isn't that developed, so you're confused. Besides, I like many different dungeons, but the small variety is a bad side. Besides the game isn't too user-friendly (almost no shops and so...). Well, about Angbands, as I play them also a lot (I've played Zangand on amiga for good few years) the "KILL KILL KIIIIIIILLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!" rule is really pain in ass...

I'm going to look at this Dungeon Crawl. I also suggest you playing Omega, b0rsuk. Not finished, rather old and not big version, but game is really interesting

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Chalks
Level: Master Delver

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b0rsuk wrote:
B0rsuk loves such systems.

Chalks loves people who refer to themselves in the third person.

As for dungeon crawl, that is a good game. I like it because of the randomness of it...and yes, the deathyaks. However, I personally like the story of ADOM, and that's where crawl fails. And hey...what's wrong with purple being the color of chaos anyways?

edit: oh yeah, and I like that there is a definite END to ADOM. I don't think crawl actually ends. or did I miss something?

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[Last edited by Chalks at 02-19-2006 03:13 AM]

Znirk
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Chalks wrote:

b0rsuk wrote:
B0rsuk loves such systems.

Chalks loves people who refer to themselves in the third person.

Znirk has been instructed not to refer to himself in the third person. We have therefore decided that, effective immediately, we won't, ever again.

b0rsuk
Level: Smiter

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skell wrote:
I'm going to look at this Dungeon Crawl. I also suggest you playing Omega, b0rsuk. Not finished, rather old and not big version, but game is really interesting

Thanks for the tip.
Crawl is even harder than ADOM. Gold is fairly limited, and you can't sell stuff, so you really have to save money. On the other hand, scrolls of teleportation are more plentiful (but require planning), and it's harder to starve to death.
Enemies to avoid at low levels:
hobgoblins giant cockroaches (heh) orc wizards, orc priests.
Watch out !
If you lose your patience, try a warrior of some sort, especially Troll.

Chalks may want to check Erik Hermansen's biography. It's written entirely in 3rd person. It suggests eurasianbadgerish ancestors.
I heard there is an end to it (crawl) - you retrieve the Orb of Zot, then you go back to first level and go upstairs. Optional, just like in ADOM.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 02-19-2006 07:25 PM]

Nillo
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I tried out Crawl recently, but now I'm so used to how everything works in ADOM, I can't get anywhere in this.

Firstly, it seems that your spells fail about half of the time, even if you're a wizard. This is very annoying - surely there must be other ways to balance magic usage?

Secondly, there are a lot of inconveniences - like when you choose from things (spells, items etc.) there's no list shown on the screen automatically so you have to press another key to see it, and the inventory is sorted totally weird, and when you choose Y/N when saving, you have to press capital letter. The instructions in-game are minimal and disorderly. No main menu...

I can understand that some people might like this more than ADOM, and it's probably easier to learn, but once you've figured out how ADOM works, it's much more complex and interesting. In my opinion.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Tim
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I'm not too sure it it's off topic, but I'm not too good in these rogue/nethack/angband kind of games. I usually die very soon.

Are there any easy games in this genre that I can try? Or am I just too stupid for this kind of stuff?

-- Tim

Krishh
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Well, DoomRL I posted about above is comparatively easy for a roguelike, and you could try one of the many save-scumming (the practice of copying saves) interfaces available for most of the popular roguelikes, although that'll probably take a big part of the fun ot of the game.

But, generally, no, most of them are quite difficult. But, in fact, most people, even those quite good at roguelikes, often die very soon, because the very early stages of a game, especially with a magic user, but to a lesser extent with fighters too, are quite difficult, and also quite a bit heavy on luck. Once you get a decent game going (I'd say about character level 4-8, depending on the game. This is easier in some games, I'd recommend Nethack for a relatively easy beginning), it gets more interesting, and you'll die a lot less often. But you're still going to die. It'll just be for a good reason, in most cases a mistake on your part, not randomness.

Tim
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Krishh wrote:
But, generally, no, most of them are quite difficult. But, in fact, most people, even those quite good at roguelikes, often die very soon, because the very early stages of a game, especially with a magic user, but to a lesser extent with fighters too, are quite difficult, and also quite a bit heavy on luck. Once you get a decent game going (I'd say about character level 4-8, depending on the game. This is easier in some games, I'd recommend Nethack for a relatively easy beginning)

Thanks. So dying soon is quite usual... Sometimes I do get some decent games (not to level 4 though), then I just died by not having enough food...

Okay, let me try something like that then...

Thanks!

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Nillo
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There are many things in ADOM that you have to figure out to have a reasonable chance of winning. I'll give you some tips & tricks:



I hope it helped, and may you have more luck in the future.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Oneiromancer
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Tim wrote:
Are there any easy games in this genre that I can try? Or am I just too stupid for this kind of stuff?

The other thread on roguelikes posted near the top has some other ideas as well. I usually die too fast, or if I survive, I get bored very quickly without addictive gameplay like Diablo. So far I've had the best luck with IVAN, although I haven't played in a long time and they haven't updated it in a long time either. I tried Dungeon Crawl when it was very new and haven't tried again, so perhaps I will like it better if I ever bother doing so.

Game on,

____________________________
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b0rsuk
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Nillo wrote:
I tried out Crawl recently, but now I'm so used to how everything works in ADOM, I can't get anywhere in this.

Admitedly, as someone said it, DC's interface is somewhat, uhm, baroque. It is said that the source code is just as elegant. But with some experience, it's not as bad. It helps if you pay attention to letters when you pick something up, a good memory exercise.

Firstly, it seems that your spells fail about half of the time, even if you're a wizard. This is very annoying - surely there must be other ways to balance magic usage?

First, if you want to use magic easily, make sure you aren't wearing any heavy armor. Even leather seems to reduce success chance a bit. Second, chance of failure depends primarily on your skill levels, so starting as a wizard deffinitely helps. Typically your higher level spells are trickier to cast, but once you're good enough you can even cast some spells in armor, because failure chance is so low.
Third, some races are so good at magic it's not even funny. Try demigod wizard of some sort, or an elf. A day and night difference when comparing to, say, human.
Fourth, yes, the game is hard. I like that, there's always a bit of challenge, meanwhile ADOM feels quite easy once you conquer Tower of Eternal Flames/get past Eternal Guardian, because you usually spend so much time preparing for these locations it's quite easy afterwards. Death always seems right behind you in Crawl, but if you're cautious and planning enough, you do much better.
Fifth... There are basically two ways of avoiding damage in Crawl - high protection from heavy armors, and high evasion/dodge from light armors, dexterity, and skills. I didn't have much success with evasion, but some races/classes are better at it. You'd also want to prepare for invisible monsters - their attacks are hard to dodge if you can't see invisible. My point is: in theory, Dodge could work very well with spellcasters as it doesn't increase spell failure.

I can understand that some people might like this more than ADOM, and it's probably easier to learn, but once you've figured out how ADOM works, it's much more complex and interesting. In my opinion.

That's where I completely disagree. I think Crawl is significantly harder to learn initially, partially because of the interface and higher difficulty. The real fun starts when your characters reliably descend 5+ levels, as you can start seeing real depth of Dungeon Crawl instead of just dying over and over. Myself, after playing Dungeon Crawl, I feel very limited when returning to ADOM. Cut-in-stone classes, linear path to follow, time limit, less unique enemies, the bottlenecks I mentioned earlier... And while Crawl is probably generally harder, it's less frustrating for me. More balanced traps (perhaps even too weak at times), food is easier to come by, and it feels more fair because an area cleared of monsters has lower monster generation rate, you have somewhere to fall back with less monsters blocking your way.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 02-21-2006 06:57 PM]

Nillo
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That explains a lot, then. The game seemed pretty simple in the beginning, so it's reassuring that you say it gets better later on.

Still, I think spellcasters are awesome, and I always choose them in any game if I can, so I was a bit set back when my wizard didn't know how to properly cast spells. I mean, a good wizard spends his lifetime studying books. There's no way an experienced, adventuring wizard would fail in casting something as simple as a magic dart.

And I wouldn't say it's difficult to get past the Eternal Guardian in ADOM. There's only one obstacle before getting the required item, and any character can easily do it with the right wand.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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Actually, I have a question.

b0rsuk
Level: Smiter

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Banjooie wrote:
Actually, I have a question.

Click here to view the secret text

×Back in my ADOM days, I actually 'completed' the girl quest a few times. My main issue is that I've /never/ found the puppy alive. I always find its corpse. Am I missing something, here?

About Eternal Guardian:


I liked DoomRL back when I play it, it's simple but quite fun(wall destruction is a little crazy). One thing I really like about DoomRL is the combat feel: high level or not, the action is quite fast, and weapons - both yours and of your enemies - are quite deadly. Usual melee combat in most roguelikes is absurdly slow by comparison. DoomRL is less reliant on character stats, more on equipment and tactics. Yes, in many ways DoomRL is more tactical than more sophisticated RL's.
DoomRL, for one, has a lot of dangerous shooters. *Dangerous* ranged monsters are uncommon in most Roguelikes, but DoomRL promotes using walls to your advantage. Also most Roguelikes seem to think Melee is the only proper way of dealing damage.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 02-21-2006 10:41 PM]

Nillo
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About swimming skill:



And climbing set:



There's always a solution to problems in ADOM, and with practice you will know where it is.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Znirk
Level: Smitemaster

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Banjooie wrote:
Actually, I have a question.

Click here to view the secret text

×Back in my ADOM days, I actually 'completed' the girl quest a few times. My main issue is that I've /never/ found the puppy alive. I always find its corpse. Am I missing something, here?

To amplify on b0rsuk's reply ...

b0rsuk
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Nillo wrote:
About swimming skill:

Click here to view the secret text

×If you don't start with it, you can get it from Blup, the baby water dragon in Terinyo. But even if you have swimming skill, stay away from rivers until you get some sort of protection for your gear, like a hooded cloak or waterproof blanket.

And climbing set:

Click here to view the secret text

×There's no need for RNG luck here. You are guaranteed to find one in the gremlin cave.

There's always a solution to problems in ADOM, and with practice you will know where it is.

My point exactly. ADOM makes you feel like someone's delivery boy. You always run from A to B.
.

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Nillo
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Regarding low strength and large rations:



____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

NeonElephant
Level: Goblin

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If you're into Crawl, I have to mention http://www.angelfire.com/trek/mazewest/ . Darshan's patch contains a number of interface improvements (most of which need not be enabled if you like the old ways).

Nillo wrote:
I tried out Crawl recently, but now I'm so used to how everything works in ADOM, I can't get anywhere in this.

Firstly, it seems that your spells fail about half of the time, even if you're a wizard. This is very annoying - surely there must be other ways to balance magic usage?

Unless you're playing 4.1 alpha, which by all accounts has made spellcasters pretty much unplayable, the failure rates aren't that awful IME, even as a human. Just bear in mind that whatever spell you start the game with is expected to be a staple for a while ... as a rule of thumb, you want your skill level to be about twice the level of the spell that you're trying to cast, assuming you demand consistency from it.

Secondly, there are a lot of inconveniences - like when you choose from things (spells, items etc.) there's no list shown on the screen automatically so you have to press another key to see it, and the inventory is sorted totally weird, and when you choose Y/N when saving, you have to press capital letter. The instructions in-game are minimal and disorderly. No main menu...

The list thing and the Y/N thing are both configurable; have a look at init.txt. Some of us find the first a feature :-)

I can understand that some people might like this more than ADOM, and it's probably easier to learn, but once you've figured out how ADOM works, it's much more complex and interesting. In my opinion.

I haven't played ADOM in a while, though I can't put my finger on a specific reason why. I tend to think that Crawl is interesting enough, though I remember the "the dungeon has branches? And people get to them regularly how?" part of my playing experience. OTOH, Angband is my other favorite roguelike, so YMMV :-)

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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File: krishh.flg (26 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

I finally did it! After hundreds (thausands?) of tries, I won!

Krishh, the human wizard, saved the world with his brave efforts and became a great ruler while saving himself 13 times. He scored 17093712 points and advanced to level 50. He survived for 0 years, 148 days, 15 hours, 23 minutes and 18 seconds (98474 turns).


I attached the memorial (open with notepad) and some highlights (SPOILERS in both):

Maurog
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So uhh, Krishh, mighty king of all humans, hero of the Drakalor Chain... how come you totally failed to bring joy back into the life of a little girl?

____________________________
Slay the living! Raise the dead!
Paint the sky in crimson red!

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
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Oh,but I did. See, by returning the dogs corpse to her, I ensured that she will not have false hopes of it returning and will be able to get over the loss quicker.

That, and I saved her from becoming a writhing mass of primordial chaos.

Don't spoil the moment, I'm celebrating here :)