krammer
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A break from all the beta testing and a metaphysical conundrum instead.

Okay, we all know that Beethro returned to the surface after completing Level 25. My only question is... how?

There are several places where it is impossible to backtrack. Examples are on level 1, with the yellow door in once north, or the red doors in Level 15, like in the entrance.

So what happened? Did the guards come down and help him out once all the monsters had been eradicated? Or did he have a couple of emergency mimic potions?

(And if you're sitting thinking "who cares?", well I do! I like spotting inconsistencies in anything with a storyline. So there.)

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levelthirteen
Level: Master Delver
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All the staircases are one way; if they were two way, we would see a staircase in each entrance room leading back up. Perhaps a rope ladder with a hook on top?

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mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Well, I'm guessing the staircases are really two-way...they just don't appear in the game because there's no point to that (to the game play, not the game "physics" ).

As to how Beethro got back up...he just took the warp-staircases backwards! This gets around level 15 and level 1. (You don't take those stairways down in the first place because that would be going against your contract to eradicate all the monsters.)

[Edited by mrimer on 07-14-2003 at 08:17 PM]

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Sokko
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I say there's a secret staircase on level 25 that leads all the way back up to level 1, bypassing all other levels. Beethro didn't notice it before because the exit is actually outside the dungeon.

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lucretia
Level: Delver
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He took the elevator. Plain and simple.

krammer
Level: Smitemaster
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Some of you need to watch the ending again!


Oh well, it will remain one of those unsolved mysteries of life, I suppose.

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Snicker
Level: Delver
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When the 'neather fell, he dropped his one and only skeleton key, which allowed Beethro to open all the doors on the way back. Did you miss that part of the FMV?

*eg*

Oneiromancer
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Ah, but the 'Neather needs to use orbs to open doors during level 25, so he can't have had a skeleton key. Both krammer and sokko are right...there is a secret staircase, 26 flights long. So there.

Game on,

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zex20913
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But the Neather was rarely next to any of the doors, and never a red or blue. So, he would have had to use orbs, even though the skeleton key could have been used. The big question is: How did the Neather see through those walls?

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Oneiromancer
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zex20913 wrote:
The big question is: How did the Neather see through those walls?

Well, a bigger question is how does anyone see through the walls? And how does a room immediately reset after Beethro leaves? And if spiders are nearly invisible on light blue tiles, why not make the entire dungeon that tile instead of alternating?

Some things were not meant to be known by mortals such as we...

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

mrimer
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I was just thinking about how the rooms reset, and I've come to the conclusion that when Beethro leaves an unfinished room and comes back in the monsters are not really resetting, just like when Beethro dies and comes back to life, he doesn't really die and come back to life. He just time-travels back to the point where he begins "again" (or before...)

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Oneiromancer
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Yes, well, what about when he leaves a room by a different exit before beating it? And once he clears the room, the doors, trapdoors, and tar all reset, right?

A congressional investigation is clearly in order here!

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

krammer
Level: Smitemaster
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Hey, it's perfectly simple.

The 'Neather lives in a secret room hidden off the entrance to level 25 (remember all those crumbly walls?). This room contains switches for all orbs, doors, traps etc in the dungeon. The 'Neather obviously doesn't like intruders, so if anyone interferes with a room, he resets it for the next visitor he gets. He doesn't interfere when anyone is in the room though, so as not to alert the intruder to his presence.

As Level 25 is the last, he prefers a face-to-face confrontation as it is his last chance to kill off the intruder, rather than letting his monsters do the work themselves..

And the monster thing - oh yeah, monsters have a special power which allows them to resurrect their companions. If all monsters are killed, obviously no monster rermains to resurrect the others. The power is what keeps green and blue doors closed too - the 'Neather has no control over this.

There you are, a solution for everything.

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Malarame
Level: Master Delver
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It's really easy to explain, actually. The 'Neather had hidden staircases that could take him to any level he wanted to go to. That way, he could quickly and easily inspect his dungeon. All Beethro had to do was climb the staircase that took him up to the first level. He still had to climb 26 sets of stairs, he just didn't have to go through the levels themselves.

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Schik
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Or perhaps he was so deep that he just went DOWN another level, which landed him on the opposite side of the Eighth.

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Sokko
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I don't think there is an "opposite side" to it; there's just a "bottom", and if you go down too deep then you'll fall out. Malarame and krammer make more sense.

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trick
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
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Schik wrote:
Or perhaps he was so deep that he just went DOWN another level, which landed him on the opposite side of the Eighth.

Hah! Yes! That would fit perfectly with my wild ramblings in the Story Collaboration thread!

Though the ending did say that Beethro had to go up all 26 stairs..

- Gerry

agaricus5
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This should be attached to the "Story Collaboration" thread - it's getting onto the metaphysical side of the Eighth again...

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NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

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I did think of something:

Krammer, yours would make more sense, in terms of the riddle that Wesley wrote, where he said the 'Neather was unable to kill Beethro with his mimic. But then again, I could be wrong.

-Noah

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ClaytonW
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krammer wrote:
Some of you need to watch the ending again!

Click here to view the secret text

×Beethro explicitly says he had to walk up 26 flights of stairs, in fact, complains that there isn't an elevator. I know he walked it - I was just wondering how he got through all the doors that could only be opened from the other side.

Oh well, it will remain one of those unsolved mysteries of life, I suppose.

Since The 'Neather was the master of the dungeon, when he perished the dungeon started to collapse (something that occurs in many, many games). Walls and doors started to break and fall apart. Beethro pretty much followed the same route that he took down, but with a few minor detours through the crumbling chaos!

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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ClaytonW wrote:

krammer wrote:
Some of you need to watch the ending again!

Click here to view the secret text

×Beethro explicitly says he had to walk up 26 flights of stairs, in fact, complains that there isn't an elevator. I know he walked it - I was just wondering how he got through all the doors that could only be opened from the other side.

Oh well, it will remain one of those unsolved mysteries of life, I suppose.

Since The 'Neather was the master of the dungeon, when he perished the dungeon started to collapse (something that occurs in many, many games). Walls and doors started to break and fall apart. Beethro pretty much followed the same route that he took down, but with a few minor detours through the crumbling chaos!

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Ooh... Chaos Theory.

Maybe after the 'Neather perished, the dungeon became a sort of fractal, and so Beethro could just walk through all the doors. (Everything became two-and-a-half dimensional)

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DiMono
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Everyone has it wrong. When the 'Neather perished, his hold on the other monsters vanished. The monsters on the rest of level 25 (which resurrected when Beethro left the room, as things in level 25 tend to do), thankful to be free from the evil 'Neather, made a deal with Beethro that they'd help him to the surface in exchange for letting them leave in peace.

The only real question is, when they all arrived at the top of the stairs, and Dugan saw Beethro accompanied by monsters, did Beethro turn around and kill them all for appearances?

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eytanz
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The problem with both these theories - Clayton's and DiMono's - is that the 'Neather was not the master of the dungeon in the sense of a ruler. The website states:

Becoming a master of his new habitat, he learned all of the secrets of the underground world and formed alliances with the monsters that dwelt there.

Now, if he had to make alliances with the monsters, that means that he didn't control them - instead, "master" means that he knows how to use all the dungeon to his advantage.

Remember that the dugeon existed long before the 'neather; and that the monsters, as the website clearly shows, were his willing allies.

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DiMono
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Ah, but who's to say how 'willing' they were? People have confessed to crimes they didn't commit in order to stop the police from continuing to question them. In England someone confessed to killing someone who was still alive.

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Malarame
Level: Master Delver
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DiMono wrote:
Everyone has it wrong. When the 'Neather perished, his hold on the other monsters vanished. The monsters on the rest of level 25 (which resurrected when Beethro left the room, as things in level 25 tend to do), thankful to be free from the evil 'Neather, made a deal with Beethro that they'd help him to the surface in exchange for letting them leave in peace.

The only real question is, when they all arrived at the top of the stairs, and Dugan saw Beethro accompanied by monsters, did Beethro turn around and kill them all for appearances?

This isn't feasible. For one, monsters don't get resurrected once a room is cleared. Additionally, Beethro's job is to clear out dungeons. He would be violating the code of his profession if he left even a single monster alive.

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Webb Institute
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NoahT
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This is getting pretty complicated! Perhaps Erik could tell us what really happened.

-Noah

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ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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NoahT wrote:
This is getting pretty complicated! Perhaps Erik could tell us what really happened.

Truthfully?

The game is an abstraction of the DROD story and will fail to represent every part of it accurately, since its priority is to be a game. Furthermore, the DROD story is an abstraction of an alternate reality, and I've already made several mistakes depicting it. Who knows how many more I might make? So the truth is distorted on several levels, and you shouldn't hope for much.

-Erik

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Mattcrampy
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Translation: Damn, I never thought of how he got back.

Matt

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ErikH2000
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Translation: Damn, I never thought of how he got back.

Heh. Yeah, maybe that's it.

-Erik

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mrimer
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And by the time Beethro got back all the text was gone, and so he couldn't tell the king anything anyway

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.