Oneiromancer
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Just as the title says...is this a bug or not? I am using Build 26 right now...perhaps it was fixed...

Game on,

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zex20913
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I don't think it's a bug...I remember a discussion where someone important to the creation of DROD said something like: all monsters act as if Beethro is not there, but snakes still move. Then, when Beethro is in smell-o-range, they start up again.

This probably brings up the problem of what the spawn counter would do...say one queen smells before another. I think we can all see the problem.

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StuartK
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Just as the title says...is this a bug or not? I am using Build 26 right now...perhaps it was fixed...

Game on,

I think it's intended, but it can make for pretty dull, challenge free gameplay. I tried it on an intentionally difficult hack and slash, in a hard to reach place, but the result (once I got there while playtesting) was so dull I used a mimic instead, and ended up with a cool (IMO) endgame

IMO invisibility potions could still be tweaked to be more interesting. The trouble is now people are building their own holds, so behaviour changes are going to break holds...


I know this isn't the forum, but I'd be curious to see some levels, which can't be completed without invisibility potions, and actively use them as part of a puzzle solution, that still present an interesting challenge to a veteran DROD player...

Oneiromancer
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StuartK wrote:
IMO invisibility potions could still be tweaked to be more interesting. The trouble is now people are building their own holds, so behaviour changes are going to break holds...

Well, when you build holds during a beta, you have to expect that some things may change. When the full version is released, only then will the holds be finalized. We have already seen changes to brains and invisibility potions.

I know this isn't the forum, but I'd be curious to see some levels, which can't be completed without invisibility potions, and actively use them as part of a puzzle solution, that still present an interesting challenge to a veteran DROD player...

Well, I like to think that I have a puzzle like that in my new hold...as I implied above, it involves brains. Of course, I set the room up so that you are required to use the invisibility potion, but only because it is probably impossible without it. And this is the room that I wanted to include roach queens to, but instead I settled for evil eyes.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Snicker
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I know that they're aware of this behaviour, but I'd like to throw my vote in it for being a bug. Roaches don't stop breeding because they can't smell you Heck - they don't stop running away when they can't see you, either. I think they should continue to breed, but not move when Beethro is invisible.

Of course, if you really wanted to be evil, you could make it so roaches (and queens) ignore invisibility (because they can still smell him), but all other sight-oriented monsters (including brains?) are still affected.

Just a thought

Scott
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If queens did spawn regardless it would still only be 1 round because the babies won't move. This can easily be achieved by placing babies in the original room design.

eytanz
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Having roaches ignore invisibility will make the potions in Dugan's Dungeon rather pointless (at the moment, they aren't necessary, but they make rooms easier).

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Oneiromancer
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Scott wrote:
If queens did spawn regardless it would still only be 1 round because the babies won't move. This can easily be achieved by placing babies in the original room design.

Yes, but in one of my rooms you kind of have to move by a brain every so often, so this will enable roaches to move away and let new ones appear. But you're right, it won't work as well.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

StuartK
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So it's a toss up between two behaviours for roach queens.

1. No spawning. On levels with brains, roaches would move towards Beethro, but Beethro could avoid new roaches being spawned by timing his moves past the brains, which might make for interesting puzzles (if the timing could be predicted - we really nead some kind of onscreen clock/bar thing to predict spawn 'times') On levels without brains, pretty dull IMO.

2. Spawning. On levels with brains, there would be a supply of additional roaches each time he goes past a brain, though they'd still only move towards Beethro slowly. Could make for a 'how to get to the roaches without too many being spawned' puzzle. On levels without brains, marginally more interesting than the no roaches. At least the queens would have a little protection...

[Edited by StuartK on 07-11-2003 at 05:03 PM]

Snicker
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StuartK wrote:

1. No spawning. On levels with brains, roaches would move towards Beethro, but Beethro could avoid new roaches being spawned by timing his moves past the brains, which might make for interesting puzzles (if the timing could be predicted - we really nead some kind of onscreen clock/bar thing to predict spawn 'times')

Two things - first, it's a 30 count from the last time it spawned. Always. Second, right click =)

I am kind of torn. We don't want to do anything to break King Dugan's, so I imagine roach behaviour will stay the same. As for spawning, it was pointed out that even if they do spawn, babies won't move, which is fine, I guess.

Oneiromancer
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Snicker wrote:
I am kind of torn. We don't want to do anything to break King Dugan's, so I imagine roach behaviour will stay the same. As for spawning, it was pointed out that even if they do spawn, babies won't move, which is fine, I guess.

Yeah, but the whole point is "while invisible". There aren't any invisibility potions in Dugan's beyond the first few levels, and for sure none when there are brains around (this is why they introduced the feature that brains are affected by invisibility potions only recently--they had never tried it before).

So it shouldn't break Dugan's to have roach queens breed regardless of Beethro's visibility.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

StuartK
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Two things - first, it's a 30 count from the last time it spawned. Always. Second, right click =)

First, that's always true whether invisible or not (though the spawn may be suppressed if Beethro is outside smell range and invisible)

Second, I know =) Maybe if I had three arms (heck, I'll go for four so I've got another arm for dealing with my coffee) Reaching for the mouse ingame, sans additional appendages, breaks the flow of the game (I might do it once in a game to see how fast I did the room, the rest of the time, I just don't bother) If roaches are not always moving out of place depending on how the room is designed, or roach queens not always spawning due to brain placement, it'd be easy to lose count after 60, 90, 120+ moves. A bar would do the job, or a clock. Or the number of moves so far, from which the player could determine the next spawn time, with a little mental arithmetic.

I am kind of torn. We don't want to do anything to break King Dugan's, so I imagine roach behaviour will stay the same. As for spawning, it was pointed out that even if they do spawn, babies won't move, which is fine, I guess.

Either roach queen behaviour wouldn't break anything in Dugan.

eytanz
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As long as tar mother/invisibility behavior isn't changed, I'm happy.

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