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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Btw, I think the moral of this story is - don't release holds without editing rights until you are 100% sure that they are fully playable. In the future, we won't have debug commands, so playing through the editor will be the only way this could really be done.

I know you have temporary stuff in the hold you don't want people to see - but once the hold copy bugs are solved, then you could just generate a copy of the hold without said secrets as the playtesting version, and then re-add them once you know all the rooms are functional.

Otherwise, I really don't see how holds of this complexity could reasonably be expected to be created.

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07-16-2003 at 11:21 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I feel so bad... :~)

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07-16-2003 at 11:28 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Hey - don't worry, it's a learning experience for all of us - and I really doubt anyone could create a hold the size and difficulty of yours without bugs creeping in. And it's definitely worth it - it's a really great hold.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-16-2003 at 11:35 PM]

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07-16-2003 at 11:33 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
A couple of specific room critiques:

(note - the reason I'm picking on these two rooms is that I really have little to say about most of the other rooms except "they're great". I think these two rooms are problematic mainly because they don't keep up to the excellent standard).

L3 2N1E:
Click here to view the secret text


L3 2N:
Click here to view the secret text


Hope this helps,
Eytan


[Edited by eytanz on 07-17-2003 at 11:30 AM]

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07-17-2003 at 11:14 AM
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Zmann
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Yay, I beat Level 1! Here's what I thought about some specific rooms:

Click here to view the secret text


Now on to level 2!

[Edited by Zmann on 07-17-2003 at 04:27 PM GMT: Hey lookie! I'm a delver!]
07-17-2003 at 04:24 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Problem in level 3:

Once you solve 1N1W, you can either go to 1N or to 1W; the moment you go to one there's no way to return to the other. This may or may not be a serious problem with 1W (because I think it might be possible to circle all away around the hold until you reach 1N1W again), but if you go to 1N, you can never leave it.

By the way:

Click here to view the secret text


One more room comment:

1S desperately needs another checkpoint; preferrably in the section with the pyramidy things in it.
[Edited by eytanz on 07-17-2003 at 04:57 PM]


[Edited by eytanz on 07-17-2003 at 06:57 PM]

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07-17-2003 at 04:55 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Zmann wrote:
Yay, I beat Level 1! Here's what I thought about some specific rooms:

L1 1N 2E: This room is way too easy. All you do is kill roaches as you wander through a simple maze. You need to make it more challenging by adding queens and a brain, or just scrap the whole room.

That's the whole point of it! It's meant to be a sort of "really easy room that looks hard". It's just there to stop newer or less experienced players who play the hold from giving up completely because it's too hard (Levels 2 and 3 are much worse, and level 4... :devil).
L1 3E: Nicely designed room. A nice break from all the switches. Roaches are constantly coming from different directions to keep you busy.
Aah... good. Wait until you get to level 3:

Click here to view the secret text


L1 4E: I found this room entirely by fluke. Its way too hard to find. After I beat all the levels I went to all the rooms trying to find the exit. When I was in 3E I accidently hit the crumbly wall to find this room. Its a nice room though. I had to take a screenshot and scribble all over it to find the solution.
I'll bear that in mind when I'm making secret rooms...

The rest of the rooms were great.
Now on to level 2!

[Edited by Zmann on 07-17-2003 at 04:27 PM GMT: Hey lookie! I'm a delver!]
I'm glad you liked level 1!

eytanz wrote:
Problem in level 3:

Once you solve 1N1W, you can either go to 1N or to 1W; the moment you go to one there's no way to return to the other. This may or may not be a serious problem with 1W (because I think it might be possible to circle all away around the hold until you reach 1N1W again), but if you go to 1N, you can never leave it.

I see...

Two orbs to open the doors coming up!

By the way:

In 1N1W, what is the bottom right orb on the left side of the screen for? The one that opens a door right below it and closes the one to it's left? I solved the room without ever using this orb.

I'm not sure - I think I was doing something with it when I was playtesting.

1S desperately needs another checkpoint; preferrably in the section with the pyramidy things in it.

Thanks... I'll see what I can do.

Have you finished it yet, or is the lack of a checkpoint the thing stopping you?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-17-2003 at 09:06 PM]

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07-17-2003 at 09:04 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I almost finished it - I was really, really close but I died because I got stuck between two tar babies after the tar grew, and didn't feel like trying again right away. I'll try it again later.

By the way, placing the checkpoint in the pyramid room will mean that you can save before opening each door in the room - if you want it to be a bit more demanding, place a checkpoint next to the orb in the bottom left corner - that's a logical breaking point.

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07-17-2003 at 09:17 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
agaricus5 wrote:
Second, here is the level 1 skip.

This one starts the hold on the 3rd level, same as the leve1+2 skip.
07-18-2003 at 12:37 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I'll replace it, but I thought it was fine.

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07-18-2003 at 10:18 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Woohoo! Just completed the hold. It was way to big for me to give individual room reviews (except the comments I occasionally wrote above), but basically, level 1 was good, though it suffered from too many arbitrary puzzles (where basically you had to guess which orb to press next, and no skill was involved), level 2 was excellent, and level 3 was great, and had some of the most enjoyable rooms, but overall was slighlty less interesting than level 2 (too many rooms relying on the exact same tactic).

This is definitely a difficult hold - but I'd seriously recommend it to anyone who completed Dugan's Dungeon and is looking for a further challenge. I may return to it and play it one day again, once all the secrets are implemented, but I don't see myself doing so anytime soon; it was too big a task. If further levels are added, I really hope Wesley includes a shortcut for those of us who already went through this once.

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07-18-2003 at 10:50 AM
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agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:
Woohoo! Just completed the hold. It was way to big for me to give individual room reviews (except the comments I occasionally wrote above), but basically, level 1 was good, though it suffered from too many arbitrary puzzles (where basically you had to guess which orb to press next, and no skill was involved), level 2 was excellent, and level 3 was great, and had some of the most enjoyable rooms, but overall was slighlty less interesting than level 2 (too many rooms relying on the exact same tactic).
I see. Well, I'll make sure that the levels become more interesting by giving a few of those with too similar tactics a little tweak... :D

This is definitely a difficult hold - but I'd seriously recommend it to anyone who completed Dugan's Dungeon and is looking for a further challenge.
I've also just noticed... There aren't any brains in it at all yet, are there?

I may return to it and play it one day again, once all the secrets are implemented...
That sounds promising...
..but I don't see myself doing so anytime soon; it was too big a task.
www... :)

If further levels are added, I really hope Wesley includes a shortcut for those of us who already went through this once.
I'll see what I can do.

I'm glad you liked it!

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07-18-2003 at 12:42 PM
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Zmann
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agaricus5 wrote:
Zmann wrote:
Yay, I beat Level 1! Here's what I thought about some specific rooms:

L1 1N 2E: This room is way too easy. All you do is kill roaches as you wander through a simple maze. You need to make it more challenging by adding queens and a brain, or just scrap the whole room.

That's the whole point of it! It's meant to be a sort of "really easy room that looks hard". It's just there to stop newer or less experienced players who play the hold from giving up completely because it's too hard (Levels 2 and 3 are much worse, and level 4... :devil).

I see. Well I did do this room somewhere towards the end, because it looked hard when I first entered it. I guess it served it's purpose then.
07-18-2003 at 04:39 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
agaricus5 wrote:
I'll replace it, but I thought it was fine.

Did you replace it? There was a version there with 0 downloads (oh, and a slightly different filesize, so I guess you did) but I get exactly the same symptoms on a fresh install of build 29 as I did before. If I start a game it goes straight to level 3. If I try to restore a game (level 2 appears on the list) also automatically selects level 3. If I select level 2, it also starts on level 3.

No matter... I'm enjoying level 3, and when I've finished, I'll go through level 1 again to get at level 2 :D


Just a suggestion, take it or leave it. How about for a future version (when multiple releases are going to become more unwieldy) a level warp instead of all these seperate releases? It could include an arbitrarily complex orb puzzle (screenshot attached :P )
07-18-2003 at 06:14 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8--upgrade and lose saved games? (0)  
StuartK wrote:
Just a suggestion, take it or leave it. How about for a future version (when multiple releases are going to become more unwieldy) a level warp instead of all these seperate releases? It could include an arbitrarily complex orb puzzle (screenshot attached :P )
This would be because you lose your saved games when you import a new version of a hold? I thought Mike fixed it so that you would at least get level start saved games after importing a new version. Maybe this only works when importing a player?

-Erik

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07-18-2003 at 06:47 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I think the process is buggy (there was a bug report about it in the bug thread). Also, until all the bugs are fixed we can't really rely on our player data either - I lost mine so many times by now I've given up counting.

Besides, since most of us have been using altered versions of the hold with missing levels (due to various bugs in the hold as well as beta bugs), there's no real way for the program to maintain consistency with the current state.

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07-18-2003 at 08:02 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8--upgrade and lose saved games? (0)  
ErikH2000 wrote:
StuartK wrote:
Just a suggestion, take it or leave it. How about for a future version (when multiple releases are going to become more unwieldy) a level warp instead of all these seperate releases? It could include an arbitrarily complex orb puzzle (screenshot attached :P )
This would be because you lose your saved games when you import a new version of a hold? I thought Mike fixed it so that you would at least get level start saved games after importing a new version. Maybe this only works when importing a player?

-Erik

I haven't been bothering to maintain a player file between seperate builds since build 27 (yes, this has caused the obvious problems with hold editing rights) since I lost my beta Dugan progress between builds 26 and 27 (I've still got the .player files, but none will import my Dugan progress) Up until this excellent hold, there hasn't been a case for actually maintaining a player file between builds. Although they've been fun, pretty much everything has been on a single level, and could be completed in a single sitting. Also, alot of people have doing complete reengineering jobs of their releases (copying levels to new holds) so they wouldn't be compatible anyway I think.

Oh, and as good as it is, there's no way I'm contemplating playing through this particular hold from the start again, in order that I could use a version that has some chance of being compatible between builds and releases. It's fun, challenging and satisfying, but (at least level 3) hurts my hands.
07-18-2003 at 09:44 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Now... if you've completed it, try this...

Download one of the versions with level 2 in it.

Go to 2S.

Now solve the room the way it should have been done (I've fixed it...), unless, of course, you already have a fixed version and completed that room the proper way... :D

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07-18-2003 at 11:33 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I just downloaded the latest version I could find (of the whole hold) - version 14 - and it still has the old version of the room (well, at least my easy solution still works, and there's no roach in it).

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07-18-2003 at 11:56 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I think it's fixed in all versions of the hold now.

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07-19-2003 at 12:04 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I just re-downloaded the version you uploaded a few minutes ago - but there's something weird with it - I went down the stairs in the level 1 end room, but winded up in level 1 again.

Oh, and the levels 2-3 version actually starts on level 3; as far as I can tell, this thread doesn't contain any version that features a playable level 2 at the moment.

(note - also, it's a bit annoying to have to look for all the hold files - if you upload corrected versions, could you please put them at the (current) end of the thread?)

[Edited by eytanz on 07-19-2003 at 12:18 AM]

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07-19-2003 at 12:14 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Some nasty bugs creeping in here... I didn't change the stair destination on level 1.
Here is the full version again.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-19-2003 at 09:09 AM]

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07-19-2003 at 12:23 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Here is the skipped Level 1 version. (I think what caused an earlier bug in this was actually DROD, not me, but....).

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-19-2003 at 12:29 AM]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 07-19-2003 at 09:08 AM]

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07-19-2003 at 12:24 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Finally, the level 3 only version.

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07-19-2003 at 12:25 AM
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eytanz
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It's been my experience with my hold that stair destinations are rather tricky - I've had them change on me several times. I never reported it because I couldn't reproduce it and bigger issues (i.e. hold corruption) kept me from testing it properly. Hopefully, once build 30 is available, I could run a small barrage of tests to try to pinpoint this.

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07-19-2003 at 12:27 AM
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agaricus5 wrote:
Here is the skipped Level 1 version. (I think what caused an earlier bug in this was actually DROD, not me, but....).

Um, Wesley, there isn't actually a file there...sorry...(ignore this reply once he fixes it).

Game on,

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07-19-2003 at 12:27 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
The "skipped level 1" version still has the old 2S. As does the full version.

Either that or I'm running into an import bug. Not sure. Can anyone else test this (you can use backslash and the arrow keys to skip rooms) and let me know? I feel like I'm harrassing Wesley and I want to make sure it's not a DROD bug.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-19-2003 at 12:39 AM]

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07-19-2003 at 12:34 AM
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Scott
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
I am not sure what change is meant to be made to 2S as I have only ever seen 1 version. I have attached a screenshot of 2S from the lastest version.
07-19-2003 at 01:53 AM
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agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:
The "skipped level 1" version still has the old 2S. As does the full version.

Either that or I'm running into an import bug. Not sure. Can anyone else test this (you can use backslash and the arrow keys to skip rooms) and let me know? I feel like I'm harrassing Wesley and I want to make sure it's not a DROD bug.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-19-2003 at 12:39 AM]

Scott wrote:
I am not sure what change is meant to be made to 2S as I have only ever seen 1 version. I have attached a screenshot of 2S from the lastest version.
It's an import bug. I've replaced the files yet again and I've checked my own versions on the editor. Try deleting and re-importing.

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07-19-2003 at 09:11 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Bavato's Dungeon: V3.8 (0)  
Ah, solved it. It's a nice room now - it's fairly easy to solve it once you know the right order to do things in, but figuring out what to do when may be tricky. I'm still not so sure this is how you intended it to be solved -

Click here to view the secret text


Btw, the orb in the lower-right corner that gets closed behind a yellow door once you open the entrance to the room is totally useless. You can never actually get there, as if you come in through the north entrance you cannot leave.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-19-2003 at 11:06 AM]

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