Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : The Latest Social Experiment (More control over your intellectual property than you ever wanted.)
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon The Latest Social Experiment (+3)  
Things have changed! When you attach a file to a forum post, you are offered a bewildering array of options. Suddenly, we are asking questions about that file you're attaching: Where'd you get it? What can other people do with it?

And it would be reasonable to ask some questions right back at us like: Why are you pestering me with this stuff? What was wrong with how we had it before? Is this what George Orwell was talking about in 1984?

Okay, let me explain...

I've observed the forum for three years now, and I know that we have something special here. The forumites are much more creative and intelligent than the typical gaming forum. It really is true--just look around! I love it when people make new holds, art, stories, and songs. It's really wonderful to see people's capabilities.

I want to promote more creativity and media-sharing on the forum. When someone decides to get serious about a project, I would like the forum to be useful for expressing and protecting how that person's work can be used. So Schik worked his monkey magic, and now we are putting a new tool in your hands to do this.

When you post something as an attachment, and it's your own work, you get to decide how you'll allow others to use it:

1. The default option is "public domain"--that means anybody can use it for whatever purpose with no obligations. This is the simplest and most generous licensing option. If you aren't concerned about how your work is used, then I encourage you to specify public domain licensing. As an example of doing this, Caravel released all of the media (not the source code) from DROD: Architects' Edition into the public domain.

2. You can also post an attachment under a Creative Commons license. There's a lot of info about this kind of license at creativecommons.org. Basically, you can allow people to use and distribute your work, but put some restrictions on it like they must give you credit as the original author or the work can't be used for commercial purposes. A nice thing about CC licenses is that once you understand what the icons mean, you can see at a glance (without reading legalese) what you can do with someone else's work. There are many sites out there that have CC-licensed content you can grab too, so if you learn about how to use CC licenses on DROD.net, the same knowledge can be used in hundreds of other places.

3. There is an option to post attachments with "All Rights Reserved" licensing. This means that nobody can use your work without your permission. This is the most restrictive licensing option, and should be used when keeping control over the work is more important than making it easy for people to use it.

4. Finally, for licensing your own work, you can also use the "other" option. I recommend avoiding this option unless you have a good reason to use it, because it will be harder for people to know what your intentions for use are.

There are also licensing options for when you are not the original author of the work. When you choose these, you are just trying to represent the original terms that allow you to redistribute the work, as opposed to making a selection based on your own preferences. If the thing you are trying to post doesn't give clear permission for you to use it, then you may want to link to the work on a different site or ask the author/copyright holder for permission to post the work on the forum.

Some licensing options require that you specify your real name in your profile. This is so that the agreement with the public is legally enforcable. To specify a handle instead of a real name in a legal agreement, makes the agreement hard to take seriously.

There are many examples of content on the site that doesn't have licensing specified for it. We aren't going to go back and retroactively say how things are licensed. (Too much work!) We'll just leave them all with an ambiguous "Other" licensing. If anyone posts an original work of their own on the site (a hold, contest entry, etc.) by default under American copyright law, the author reserves all rights to it, and that's how we'll treat it.

This is the first step in a big plan to fill the forum up with crazy creative energy. In Caravellian style, the next step of the plan will drop into place without warning. There are dramatic events in store. You are in the right place at the right time!

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

[Last edited by mrimer at 09-22-2005 07:11 PM]
09-22-2005 at 05:42 PM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
The changes to the attachment interface should go online in a few hours or so, actually. I'm about ready to leave for a day trip (Puyallup Fair!), and wanted to post the announcement now so when Schik pulled the lever it would be here.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
09-22-2005 at 05:43 PM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+3)  
The lever has been pulled. Please let me know if anything doesn't work!

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
09-22-2005 at 06:25 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
ErikH2000 wrote:
1. The default option is "public domain"--that means anybody can use it for whatever purpose with no obligations. This is the simplest and most generous licensing option. If you aren't concerned about how your work is used, then I encourage you to specify public domain licensing. As an example of doing this, Caravel released all of the media (not the source code) from DROD: Architects' Edition into the public domain.
So, if someone posts, say, a screenshot from JtRH, and for whatever reason does not change the default, someone else might, innocently enough, get the impression that the image really is in the public domain, even though the poster probably did not have the right to put it there. My initial guess is that this is not the best default option. As I understand it, even being the "original author" of a work does not necessarily give one this right. I would guess that most people are unaware of what the copyright status of, for example, the fonts that they use....

Weston
10-03-2005 at 03:42 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Andy101
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 222
Registered: 07-22-2005
IP: Logged

File: Images.zip (721.7 KB)
Downloaded 70 times.
License: Public Domain
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+2)  
I'm not sure that the all rights reserved option works correctly as when I try to post a file with those options it appears as being in the public domain :? For example I selected all rights reserved when attaching the file to this post.

____________________________
"True perfection has to be imperfect"

[Last edited by Andy101 at 10-03-2005 10:09 PM]
10-03-2005 at 10:08 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: Test.txt (28 bytes)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: All Rights Reserved
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Testing all rights reserved attachments.

Edit: It seems to work fine for me.... Can some others test it here as well?

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

[Last edited by Schik at 10-04-2005 03:28 AM]
10-04-2005 at 03:27 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged

File: tsulb.png (2.2 KB)
Downloaded 83 times.
License: Public Domain
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+1)  
Schik wrote:
Edit: It seems to work fine for me.... Can some others test it here as well?
Didn't work. This was supposed to be "Other".

...trying this one again....

Didn't work again. I set a Creative Commons license, then set "No", I am not the original author.... which has a side-effect of selecting "Other"....

[Last edited by wmarkham at 10-04-2005 04:28 AM]
10-04-2005 at 04:11 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: Test.txt (28 bytes)
Downloaded 62 times.
License: All Rights Reserved
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
I think I fixed it right after you posted. Can you try again?

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
10-04-2005 at 04:15 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged

File: tsulb.tiff (2.4 KB)
Downloaded 85 times.
License: Other
From: I made this one, too!
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+1)  
I am setting "No", "Other", "I made this one, too!", and "" (empty)....

And it worked!


[Last edited by wmarkham at 10-04-2005 04:18 AM]
10-04-2005 at 04:17 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged

File: tsulb2.png (2.2 KB)
Downloaded 75 times.
License: Other
From: There's more where this came from.
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
From a clean start, here....

pick a file...
select "Creative Commons"...
pick "No" to disallow commercial use...
pick "Select a License"...
click "proceed"...
select "No", I am not the original author...
enter "There's more where this came from."...
click "Send Reply".......
10-04-2005 at 04:32 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
wmarkham wrote:
From a clean start, here....

pick a file...
select "Creative Commons"...
pick "No" to disallow commercial use...
pick "Select a License"...
click "proceed"...
select "No", I am not the original author...
enter "There's more where this came from."...
click "Send Reply".......
I fixed the excessive backslashes. That was all that was wrong.... right?

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
10-04-2005 at 04:37 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+3)  
Okay, so when I edited my first message, I didn't get "Other", like I expected. But when I started from scratch, I couldn't produce that problem.

I did see some odd behavior when I went to another page, then went back & clicked "send". That could be problems on the browser side, though.... Oh, the final one appears to have some overzealous but otherwise harmless quoting applied to it.

I'm done testing. Hope that helps.

Weston
10-04-2005 at 04:40 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Schik wrote:I fixed the excessive backslashes. That was all that was wrong.... right?
Right.

Weston
10-04-2005 at 04:41 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Oh, and feel free to clean up all these extra messages....

Weston
10-04-2005 at 04:42 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
wmarkham wrote:
I did see some odd behavior when I went to another page, then went back & clicked "send". That could be problems on the browser side, though....
Yeah, browsers have problems with the Back button with list boxes, especially when there's javascript associated with changing the selection in those boxes.
I'm done testing. Hope that helps.
Very much! Thanks!

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
10-04-2005 at 04:45 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
wmarkham wrote:
So, if someone posts, say, a screenshot from JtRH, and for whatever reason does not change the default, someone else might, innocently enough, get the impression that the image really is in the public domain, even though the poster probably did not have the right to put it there.
We'll try to catch cases like this and correct them.
My initial guess is that this is not the best default option. As I understand it, even being the "original author" of a work does not necessarily give one this right. I would guess that most people are unaware of what the copyright status of, for example, the fonts that they use....
I generally don't want people posting things if they don't understand what the copyright or licensing status for it is. In your example, if somebody doesn't know where a font came from, they shouldn't be posting it.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
10-05-2005 at 06:51 PM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
wmarkham
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
ErikH2000 wrote:
I generally don't want people posting things if they don't understand what the copyright or licensing status for it is. In your example, if somebody doesn't know where a font came from, they shouldn't be posting it.
But my concern is that in general, people don't know that. I might be wrong about this but I suspect that in general, the result of rendering a copyrighted font can't be placed in the public domain. (Well, Googling around a bit leads me to think that noone has ever tried to enforce such a claim, thankfully.) Simply posting it should be no problem; "fair use" and the particulars of font licenses probably allow that. But these would not necessarily allow a "derivative work" to be placed in the public domain.

I wouldn't want forum users to inadvertently put themselves in a position where they could actually get sued because they neglected to adjust the default selection. Is that likely to happen? I really don't know. But making the default be "other" would be much safer, IMO. That way, the poster isn't making any sort of claim about the work, unless she has explicitly decided to do so.

You can simply fix any mistakes that people make in regard to Caravel's works, but that isn't really what I am worried about. Might I suggest that you keep a rough tally of the number of times you find that someone has attempted to place Caravel's copyrighted work into the public domain, vs. how many presumably-legitimate times someone places a work in the public domain using this mechanism? My cynical nature leads me to intuit that the first category will be more common.

Weston

[Last edited by wmarkham at 10-09-2005 04:32 AM : clarify the distinction I make between fair use and public domain]
10-09-2005 at 04:27 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
While I agree with your general cynicism and the observation that it's not realistic to expect the general forum-posting public to understand the subtley of intellectual property laws (I know I don't), I still doubt your last assertion for the simple reason that the vast majority of things actually posted on these forums tend to be things that can be legitimately be made pubic domain (i.e. hold files). I'm guessing that if there will be a problem, it will be with screenshots, which are probably the second most common posting. But still, I doubt there will be more "public domain" screenshots posted than hold files any time soon.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
10-09-2005 at 04:55 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Stefan
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2119
Registered: 05-25-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
I just noticed that all holds that have been submitted after file permissions were introduced have been put under the Public Domain license. Older holds (before file permissions) are all licensed as 'Other' (unspecified).

Should all holds on the holds board be licensed as 'Public Domain' or 'Other' or is it up to the hold author to decide what the license should be? If the latter, how do I change the licensing for my submitted hold?

____________________________
0.099³
10-16-2005 at 12:23 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Stefan wrote:
I just noticed that all holds that have been submitted after file permissions were introduced have been put under the Public Domain license. Older holds (before file permissions) are all licensed as 'Other' (unspecified).
Do you mean when authors post their holds as attachements? In that case, it's up to the author to set the licensing how he wants. I don't believe any licensing info is visible for the holds published in the Holds area. (not attached) These are meant to default to "All Rights Reserved" to the author and we'll add a message in the holds area to that effect.
Should all holds on the holds board be licensed as 'Public Domain' or 'Other' or is it up to the hold author to decide what the license should be?
Up to the author.
If the latter, how do I change the licensing for my submitted hold?
Is it an attachment or is it a published hold? If it's an attachment just remove the attachment and reattach it. If it's a published hold, show me where it says "public domain" so I can see if there is a problem.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
10-16-2005 at 04:03 AM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
I think Stefan is referring to what the forum automatically assigns to the hold when it is published. I don't know if we can set it to another type of copyright ourselves, it has to be included in the uploading process.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
10-16-2005 at 04:28 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Stefan
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2119
Registered: 05-25-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Yeah, I was referring to the holds on the Holds board.

The holds Manipulation, Labyrinthitis (JtrH edition), and Beethro Budkin in "That Really Annoying Hold" are currently under the Public Domain license. All other holds (I think) are licensed as 'Other'.

It would be nice to be able to change the permission for submitted holds. Could be done from the 'My Holds'-page in profiles.

____________________________
0.099³
10-16-2005 at 03:01 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
I finally see what Stefan is talking about.

Yeah, I think these should all be "Other"/"Unspecified".

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
10-16-2005 at 05:54 PM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5423
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (+2)  
I've fixed the licenses on the recently submitted holds, and changed the upload process so future submissions will have the correct licenses as well.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

[Last edited by Schik at 10-18-2005 04:34 AM]
10-18-2005 at 04:34 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: The Latest Social Experiment (0)  
Thanks, Schik!

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
10-18-2005 at 05:37 AM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : The Latest Social Experiment (More control over your intellectual property than you ever wanted.)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.