md5i
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Game Tunnel has a review for JtRH in their 2005 Independent Game Mid-Terms.

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Michael Welsh Duggan
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Banjooie
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Interesting.

Secreted for, y'know, shortening purposes, the top guy's review.



I think he played DROD: AE by mistake.

Oneiromancer
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Yeah, they had also covered it in their April 2005 Round-Up. They gave it some high ratings, but had some odd misconceptions that should have been easily resolved by reading the help file. For example, one guy complained about repetitive QW'ing, and so apparently didn't know about using Control for repetitive tasks...and also apparently didn't know about the Undo key. And another guy complained about not having a keypad on the laptop, but during the installation it asks you if you are on a desktop or laptop and sets up the keys accordingly, so I don't know what happened there.

And I don't know why it's considered an "Adventure/Quest/Platform" game in the Mid-term grade report thing...Schik suggested to me that it's because the Puzzle category is also Casual...but it still seems kind of lumped in there arbitrarily to me.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
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I am really happy that we were selected for the top two in the genre. There have been some good indie adventure games this year. As for being in "Adventure" instead of "Puzzle", that deserves a little mini-rant...

There are two definitions of "puzzle" used in computer games now. The classic definition is a contemplative challenge which requires discovery of a single solution (or at least a very limited number of solutions). This definition is more in-line with the non-computer-game definition. Then along came Tetris and Bejeweled and Collapse and all the other reflex-oriented pattern-matching games that were also called "puzzle" games. I suspect that this usage really got rolling when a collection of Alexey Pajitnov's were packaged together in the "Microsoft Puzzle Collection Entertainment Pack". Because pattern-matching games are much more popular than their slower-paced cousins, the second definition is dominant, and most game players would not think of DROD as a "puzzle" game now. Many of the people who are bored of vapid pattern-matchers are exactly who we want to reach. "Adventure" indicates a game that will ask for more involvement. Since we've added story elements in DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold, it's really not such a stretch.

RealArcade and some other large portals have further widened the gap between the two "puzzle" definitions by heavily influencing developers to dumb down their pattern-matching games. Real will say for example, that games must be fully playable with a mouse and not require keyboard. And games that aren't immediately obvious how to play in 5 seconds are out too. Why would devs change their designs to cater to big portals? It can be very lucrative to get your game on portals--you have a chance at tens of thousands of sales if you make the next hit. Seeing some other developer roll in the bucks from some maddeningly simple game is very tempting. It makes one ask, "Why not me? I could make a game like Bejeweled in 3 months!" So many developers plan at the outset to make their games friendly to the "casual" market, which are people with a very low commitment to playing games. I don't fault Real for it's influence, they are just promoting games that will be successful with their customers. I'm more irritated with indie developers that decide they want to get practical about making money and create games for portals that are boring even to themselves.

So in recent years, the value of using "puzzle" to describe DROD has fallen way down, and I've decided to describe it in other ways. When I submit DROD to game sites, I put it under "adventure" when I can. It's something I've thought about and gotten advice from a marketing expert on. I was glad to see GameTunnel classify DROD as "adventure".

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
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Oneiromancer
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Fair enough, Erik. I guess it is just a case of changing definitions. Although I will still be of the personal opinion that it is more of a puzzle game than an adventure game.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Krishh
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ErikH2000 wrote:
...

Though that is kind of sad, even if true.

This review on Game Tunnel enrages and saddens me on so many levels it's unbearable:

1) the sad state of the puzzle genre as viewed by others;
2) pattern recognition action games being the definition of puzzle;
3) the shallowness of the reviewer, approving of a bejeweled clone because it's "cool" and dising all the other clones because they are are "girl games";
4)the sad state of mainstream gaming in general, graphics being viewed above all else;
5) the fact that a game as boring and repetive as a Bejeweled clone can recieve 5 stars anyway;
6) the reviewer equaling his shallowness with being male.

Seriously, that review pretty much encompasses everything I find wrong with puzzle games and gaming.

ErikH2000
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Krishh wrote:
This review on Game Tunnel enrages and saddens me on so many levels it's unbearable:

I'm sympathetic, but I'll play devil's advocate to some of your points because I think your reaction may be a bit too strong.

1) the sad state of the puzzle genre as viewed by others;
2) pattern recognition action games being the definition of puzzle;

Remember, "puzzle" is just a word. Having the word stolen away by a different type of game is a small misfortune. But it doesn't do much harm to a genre that was always a niche in the first place. Puzzle gamers have always needed to look harder to find something good, because there aren't so many of us.

3) the shallowness of the reviewer, approving of a bejeweled clone because it's "cool" and dising all the other clones because they are are "girl games";

First off, I want to tell you about the reviewer, Russell Carroll. He's been a nonstop promoter of "indie" games for some years, and has slowly built up GameTunnel into a polished site with decent content and traffic. There is a constant fear among indie developers that we're going to get crushed by large publishers because we can't get any exposure. The really popular game sites give little to no attention to indie games. Without sites like GameTunnel and other opportunities for exposure, a guy like me has to pitch his game to larger publishers or portals and bend to their will. I.e. pitch DROD to a regular publisher (as I have) and suddenly it has to be console-friendly, have 3D graphics, very large tiles, and use licensed characters from the latest blockbuster. Or if I were going for a portal, suddenly it has to be totally mouse-driven, no confusing diagonal movement, very large tiles, each level is just one room, and sheesh... it wouldn't even be close to the same game.

This is not to say you were picking on Russell, or that it invalidates your criticism. I'm just pointing out he's one of the good guys.

As far as pattern-matching games go, you would be surprised at how much goes into them. There are many afficionados of the genre that enjoy playing slightly different variations of the same mechanics. It's kind of like pinball--same dumb flippers, gravity, bouncers, etc. on every game, but if you like that kind of game, the small differences matter. I wrote a match-3 game for Webfoot. A lot of psychological factors have to be attended to. The game design is very subtle--more subtle than DROD, where much of the "game" is actually left to the hold author to create.

6) the reviewer equaling his shallowness with being male.

I thought that gender part of the review was a little dumb, yeah. If we made some kind of chart, I'd bet that on average women go for the cartoony, light-hearted graphics and men go for the darker, seriouser themes. It's obviously a generalization, but there's some truth to it. I think Russell's characterization of the game as being male-oriented was overstating it though.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Krishh
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My reaction probably was too strong, and by the way I do visit Game Tunnel every now and then, if not for the reviews (which, while not usually like this one, aren't the best out there), then simply for coverage on new indie games.
In reply to your post, saying that sites like Game Tunnel are what holds up the indie game development might be true, but it is just a natural part of the internet. They still don't bring coverage of indie games to people not specifically searching for them, since thay need to find the site anyway. A person would still have to search the web for logic puzzle games to ever find DROD, so sites like Game Tunnel don't promote it much outside the niche DROD rests in anyway. The way things currently are is a natural evolution of the gaming industry, and I don't think that is is possible for indie games to be swallowed by larger publishers due to lack of exposure. They are niche for a reason, that being that comparatively few people are interested in games like these anyway, and those that are will look for them and most of them will find them. Although you probably know better about these things, considering the fact that you yourself are an indie developer, this is how I see it.

And I still don't get pattern matching games. I disagree with your pinball analogy. These games are more like taking the same pinball table, and giving them different pictures, making some bumbers more or less bumpy then the previous version and tweaking the score values a little. To me, it's still the same pinball table.

Tim
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Krishh wrote:
1) the sad state of the puzzle genre as viewed by others;
2) pattern recognition action games being the definition of puzzle;

I think your comment is very insightful. But like Erik, I think I should play the Devil's Advocate as well. Just ask yourself:

Have you ever noticed that the best games you've played are never classified as real puzzle games, even though they made you think a lot?

Some examples (and these are some of the games I consider great):

* The Zelda series has lots of puzzles, but people are still saying it's adventure?
* Lufia 2 is named as a RPG, but contains lots of puzzles.
* DROD. What? Is that a puzzle game? No, really, if DROD really contained really hard puzzles, not a lot people would have bought it.
* Jigsaw is a great text adventure with strange puzzles, but people will just call them a good game because the puzzles are well disguised.

The best puzzle games never let you think they are puzzle games. Because, if it is advertised as a puzzle game, people will think it's hard and boring, and they eventually just skip them. Look at those really hard puzzle holds we have here, how many have you finished?

There is nothing wrong with "pattern recognition action games" being classified as puzzles, since they do not really offer anything else than thinking. The only problem is, most of the industry games lately do not really involve thinking anyway...

Back to topic, Erik, if reviewers mistake your game for some other genres, then it must be a good game

-- Tim

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Krishh
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In reply to your points, in te same order:

Well actually, the best games I've played when it came to puzzles were classified as such. (DROD and TIM (The Incredible Machine) come to mind here)

Zelda had a lot of puzzles, and they were one of it's biggest points, but it still was an andveture game, with puzzles as part of the adventure.

DROD is much more of a puzzle game, with an adventure being used to represent the puzzle.

Not any more, since "puzzle game" has come to mean a game with colored blocks/whatever arranged/to be arranaged in patterns. Although admittedly I haven't solved many of the harder holds, I still find them fun.

Well, about the pattern recogniton puzzles, just ask yourself: how easy would this game be if it was played in turn-based mode. For the vast majority of these games that would be in the range from below average to pointlessly easy. Now take the games actual difficulty and substract the turnbased difficulty from it. The remainder is action/automatic pattern recognition, with a small dash of quick thinking, which must be quickly weeded out and replaced by pattern recognition to be any good at the game, and this remainder with most games would probably be the vast majority.

ErikH2000
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Krishh wrote:
In reply to your post, saying that sites like Game Tunnel are what holds up the indie game development might be true, but it is just a natural part of the internet. They still don't bring coverage of indie games to people not specifically searching for them, since thay need to find the site anyway.

It's hard for you to see the effort that goes into it. For example, Russell spends thousands of dollars every year to promote GameTunnel at trade shows. He's gotten his site featured on TV. The indie monthly round-up is covered on Slashdot. It's easy to call it a "natural" development, but these sites don't grow up effortlessly from the dirt. It takes talent and work.

A person would still have to search the web for logic puzzle games to ever find DROD, so sites like Game Tunnel don't promote it much outside the niche DROD rests in anyway.

The fact that you have a hard time finding sites that promote DROD really is just more evidence of the problem. I am not saying that small niche games like DROD should be as heavily talked about as massive crowd-pleasers like Halo 2 or World of Warcraft. What I am saying is that gaming coverage is not a simple meritocracy where the games are promoted "naturally" in accordance to how many people would be interested in them. Marketing for games is incredibly complex. It's full of barriers to entry, economies of scale, politics, and countless unfair advantages.

The way things currently are is a natural evolution of the gaming industry, and I don't think that is is possible for indie games to be swallowed by larger publishers due to lack of exposure.

It is not a question of being swallowed, because a publisher doesn't go searching for dismal failures and force them to change into something better. A publisher just makes selections based on what is profitable, and invites developers to be profitable along with him. So it is really a question of how does the developer make the game he wants to make? If you don't have any money and can't expect to make much money, then you are a moonlighter or hobbyist. You will make small games with limited resources. That's fine, but survival will dictate that you spend some larger amount of your time working at something else, so many grand ideas are left unbuilt.

If there is some kind of market you can sell to, and there are good ways to get people to find out about you, then you have a chance to put more resources into the effort and make better games. If your indie game can't get eyeballs because there aren't enough GameTunnels or Home of the Underdogs, then you've got 2 options left for making your games: 1. unpaid moonlighter or 2. cater to the unimaginative whims of publishers.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Zmann
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Krishh wrote:And I still don't get pattern matching games. I disagree with your pinball analogy. These games are more like taking the same pinball table, and giving them different pictures, making some bumbers more or less bumpy then the previous version and tweaking the score values a little. To me, it's still the same pinball table.

You obviously haven't played Meteos.

Oneiromancer
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Expanding on what Krishh said, I think it's the turn-based nature of DROD that makes me classify it as a puzzle game instead of an adventure. Sure, with JtRH we are starting to care more about the story, and that helps make it more "adventure"...but at heart it's still a turn-based game, with puzzles. Fish Fillets is the same way...it's got a story, it's got voice acting, and I suppose it's kind of adventure-like...but it's a turn-based game, and to beat it you must solve lots of puzzles.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Tim
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Krishh, sorry, Devil's Advocate's hat is on again. And I'm really sorry, because I agree with your answer very much.

My answer to your question: if a game is played in turn-based mode instead of "real-time", it would be an easier game. But it is unfair to judge "hardness" of a real time game against a turn based one, as time must be taken in consideration when calculating difficulty. Compare this to how IQ is being measured, one has to give correct answers within a time limit. Time limits do make a situation harder. The only difference is, that one will feel more satisfied by solving a turn based puzzle because the difficulty is not added artificially.

Why the majority of people think those really easy puzzle games with time limits as "puzzle games"? Because they are really easy (and thus solvable for most people). And because no one is willing to label their hard game as puzzle, as "puzzle games" is currently being connected with simple games with a time limit.

-- Tim

[ PS. Advance Wars is great puzzle game as well, but people usually just call it "an advanced chess" type game instead... ]

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Oneiromancer
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Tim wrote:
[ PS. Advance Wars is great puzzle game as well, but people usually just call it "an advanced chess" type game instead... ]

Really? They're calling turn-based strategy games puzzle games now? Or am I just totally misunderstanding what Advance Wars is? I could have sworn it was similar to Final Fantasy Tactics, or Shining Force, or even Ogre Tactics/Battle. (Or, on the PC end, Warlords, Heroes of Might and Magic, or Age of Wonders, although I think there's a big difference between PC turn-based strategy games and console ones.)

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Tim
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Okay, yeah. That's probably a mistake. I must be getting old...

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jdyer
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ErikH2000 wrote:
RealArcade and some other large portals have further widened the gap between the two "puzzle" definitions by heavily influencing developers to dumb down their pattern-matching games. Real will say for example, that games must be fully playable with a mouse and not require keyboard.

I remember reading on an adventure forum someone had a "sandwich" test for games -- they had to be able to play it with a sandwich in one hand.

Hence, a justification for node-based 3D rather than free movement with WASD.

Adventure gamers (in the classical use of the word) are themselves annoyed by the invasion of intruders into their name. I suspect DROD may eventually show up in one of these threads (look, they called it an adventure game, blasphemy!)

I just separate arcade-style puzzle and turn-based puzzle in my head and everything is happy.

trick
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jdyer wrote:
I just separate arcade-style puzzle and turn-based puzzle in my head and everything is happy.

That works until you come across a puzzle game that is both arcade and turn-based (Chuzzle comes to mind). You could of course separate the various genres into arcade and non-arcade in stead (I do this, actually), but in the end, once you start categorizing things, you either start losing information, or end up with as many genres as there are games. Every game is different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Even if you despise a particular genre, there may be one game in that genre that you actually enjoy.

Keeping that in mind, it's still convenient to have a comparatively small-ish amount of boxes to lump games into, of course. Sub-genres and arcade/non-arcade helps with that, so you can say that Bejeweled is "Arcade Puzzle Action", DROD is "Puzzle + Arcade RPG Adventure", Day Of The Tentacle is just plain "Adventure" (and an excellent one, at that ), etc. I have no idea what I should call Myst, though. "First-Person Click Adventure", possibly.

- Gerry

leroy00
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Yeah, they had also covered it in their April 2005 Round-Up. They gave it some high ratings, but had some odd misconceptions that should have been easily resolved by reading the help file. For example, one guy complained about repetitive QW'ing, and so apparently didn't know about using Control for repetitive tasks...and also apparently didn't know about the Undo key.
...
Game on,

Well, to be fair, he complained about not being able to undo a death, which is not explicitly stated in the help file. I don't know why he would think you can undo a move which doesn't lead to death but not one which does. However, I thought the same thing when I started playing JtRH and only discovered the undo-death thing by accident when I tried it out of frustration despite "knowing" it wouldn't work. I guess it is because the death animation starts right away, and one may assume it can't be interrupted. And I still don't know anything about "using Control for repetitive tasks" and couldn't find any mention of it in the help files. Maybe you could point that out to me. I'm sure you remember a lot stuff from during the development stage and discussions on the private boards, so you surely aren't a good indication of "new user knowledge from the help file." (That sounds maybe like a criticism, bit it isn't, just an observation. Blame it on my bad english skills.) DROD 2.0 would probably benefit from the help files being expanded a bit.

-leroy

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krammer
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Ctrl plus a key makes that move and the opposite move immediatley afterwards. So (assuming you use the default keys) Ctrl-4 does a left-right, Ctrl-8 does an up-down, Ctrl-Q does a QW. Useful when fighting large hordes - holding down Ctrl-Q is a lot easier than QWQWQWQW...

Undo death is mentioned in the tutorial as well as the helpfiles though, so I don't see why so many people miss out on that one.

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leroy00
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krammer wrote:
Undo death is mentioned in the tutorial as well as the helpfiles though, so I don't see why so many people miss out on that one.

Okay, thanks for the explanation, Krammer. The non-inclusion of the control command is certainly an oversight, albeit a serious one. As far as undo death is concerned, the exact quote from the help file is:
"Backspace - undo last move".
As I said, it is not mentioned explicitly that it also undoes death, and the animation seems to throw a lot of people off, myself included. I also did the tutorial, and I would bet my last shirt it isn't mentioned there, because I think I would have remembered something as fundamental as that, of course I can't be 100% sure without redoing it.

-leroy

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rothro
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Hi

krammer wrote:
Ctrl plus a key makes that move and the opposite move immediatley afterwards.

Wow - this is total news to me, something I wished for a LONG long time has been implemented and I never knew. It really helps the keyboard (I've taken to remapping the qw keys every few days - remember the days where this olympic game on the Atari 800 required you to hammer .,.,., as fast as you could? My punktuation was never the same after that...)

Great feature! It certainly deserves to come up in a tip of the day (the banner maybe? alternating between contest and tip?).

Cheers,
Rothro

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Tscott
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I really like the idea of a tip of the day (week?). It could either be in the ingame banner (if the tips were brief enough) or on the Drod.net home page- kind of like how www.diabloii.net does their D2X Fact of the Day (day being used in the loosest form as many tips stay for weeks). It could focus on these "hidden" features and some advanced techniques like backslashing and such.

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AlefBet
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If a tip of the day was done, I think it would be better to do it in the banner. It's more likely to get out to more people that way. The people who actually visit the forum, especially daily, are likely to be pretty DROD-savvy anyway.

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