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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : H I J K (4 DROD:AE holds updated for JtRH)
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8.3/10 (32 votes)
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Author Name:Tscott
Submitted By:Tscott
Hold Name:H I J K
Theme:4 DROD:AE holds updated for JtRH
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Number of Levels:6
Number of Rooms:83
Number of Monsters:3794
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
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Hold Karma:20 (+20 / -0)
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icon H I J K  
Together again for the first time, it's four of my single level holds combined into one. This collection includes my somewhat popular Impossible Cubes, along with the somewhat less popular levels, Killing Jar and Happy House, and the never before seen (outside of the Architecture forum) Jigsaw Feeling.

But wait there's more... There's some added scripts, a little redecorating, a few little tweaks, built in optional commentary and maybe a few surprises. I hope you enjoy it.
05-14-2005 at 07:10 AM
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Hatlore
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I seem to be stuck on the happy house floor, as the blue doors will not open. Curious!

Edit: Nevermind. TRICKSY!

[Edited by Hatlore at Local Time:05-16-2005 at 01:37 AM]
05-16-2005 at 01:31 AM
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Banjooie
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This hold is beautiful except for your tendency to produce one-way rooms through use of red doors.

See: That one hold where it's mostly pits.
05-16-2005 at 07:49 AM
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Tscott
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
This hold is beautiful except for your tendency to produce one-way rooms through use of red doors.

See: That one hold where it's mostly pits.
Thanks. I was aware of that drawback while making Jigsaw Feeling. Due to the nature of the puzzles I made that level very linear and the smallest of the 4 levels (only 10 rooms). I will admit, I was replaying that level today and realized I might've better placed some of the commentary squares so that more could've been backtracked from the previous room on that level, but I didn't have much floor place to work with to begin with. :? The other three levels are much more open and convenient to backtrack in.

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And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-16-2005 at 08:28 AM
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StuartK
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1N2W of Jigsaw Feeling appears to have an unintended shortcut caused by the placement of one of those commentary squares. This could be fixed by extending the red door one square northwards.
05-17-2005 at 02:01 AM
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Tscott
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
1N2W of Jigsaw Feeling appears to have an unintended shortcut caused by the placement of one of those commentary squares. This could be fixed by extending the red door one square northwards.
:blink

:blush Good catch. I was thinking with the green door there I'd be good, but as soon as it's gone... :( I've got a fix for it, along with some better placements for a couple comment squares on that level, but I'm not sure how to go about updating.

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And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-17-2005 at 03:43 AM
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techant
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I am having fun :D,
I keep telling myself that anyway.

Actually I am stuck..... in the Jigsaw Feeling 3W. How do you move those mother roachs out, so you can kill them? I have tried many methods but I guess I have missed some training somewhere. I can't move on until I get some help so please hurry my sword arm is getting tired. :blush

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[Last edited by techant at 09-07-2006 07:44 AM]
05-17-2005 at 09:06 AM
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Tscott
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quote:
techant wrote:
Actually I am stuck..... in the Jigsaw Feeling 3W. How do you move those mother roachs out, so you can kill them?
"Do you know the secret to good comedy?"
"No, what's the secret to goo-"
"TIMING!"

There's a reason I didn't release that level to the holds forum until after JtRH was released- the on-screen clock. Try to make use of it. If you need more...

Queen #1:
Click here to view the secret text

Queen #2:
Click here to view the secret text


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-17-2005 at 09:27 AM
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TripleM
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Just played through (and mastered, yes mastered) this collection, and enjoyed them. I had previously had a quick look at some of them individually but now due to the high scores feature I played through the whole lot, and found I enjoyed them a lot more - I especially liked the room commentary.
05-17-2005 at 10:05 PM
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StuartK
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Something to be aware of with this hold....

I started one level (Happyhouse) and completed some rooms, restored to the junction room, did another level (Jigsaw Feeling) and instead of going via the junction room back to Happyhouse, I restored to it. Now as far as the game is concerned I'm missing one of the rooms in the junction level to open the blue doors, and I'm going to have to repeat Jigsaw Feeling to finish the hold (gladly a relatively short level)

I can see situations where using restore just within a single level, if you've visited it previously and then gone on to complete a different level out of order, could also net you similar results of a 'missing' level.


The only fix I can see would be a game addition, where certain rooms can be set to be recorded as having been visited on a permanent basis after the first visit, even if the restore function has been used as above.
05-19-2005 at 12:07 AM
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StuartK
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There's a spelling mistake in Impossible Cubes: 1S1W, 'acturate'

[Edited by StuartK at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 01:36 AM]
05-19-2005 at 01:36 AM
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Tscott
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
Something to be aware of with this hold....
This is something to aware of with any non linear-hold. I know they ran into some similar problems with JtRH level 15 when people were looking for all the secret rooms- they then fixed it so completing a secret room always counts towards mastery no matter how you restored the game. However, there's nothing like this for all rooms. I offered people a choice as to what order they'd like to play the levels, but they'll have to complete them one after the other without restoring back and forth. There's not much I can do about that.

quote:
StuartK wrote:
There's a spelling mistake in Impossible Cubes: 1S1W, 'acturate'
Thanks. That's a carry over from the original version of Impossible Cubes and you're the first person to call me on it.

[Edited by Tscott at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 09:36 AM]

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-19-2005 at 09:35 AM
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StuartK
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quote:
I offered people a choice as to what order they'd like to play the levels, but they'll have to complete them one after the other without restoring back and forth. There's not much I can do about that.

There are a couple of options, but neither are very attractive.

If the exit rooms were all secrets, you could use a Master Wall to block the exit door. Of course since you have rooms marked as secret already, I'm assuming this would break other stuff...

The other option would be an orb/script code room.
05-19-2005 at 11:06 AM
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VortexSurfer
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quote:
StuartK wrote:
quote:
I offered people a choice as to what order they'd like to play the levels, but they'll have to complete them one after the other without restoring back and forth. There's not much I can do about that.

There are a couple of options, but neither are very attractive.

If the exit rooms were all secrets, you could use a Master Wall to block the exit door. Of course since you have rooms marked as secret already, I'm assuming this would break other stuff...

The other option would be an orb/script code room.


Another option would be to add stairs leading back to the main entrance room everywhere (or make them at least accessible from everywhere in the different sub-holds) so you could always go back and forth between the sub-holds.

In that case, you would just need a special staircase leading to the end of the hold, made up of one special room in each level (containing just the stairs to enter and exit, and a blue door in between) so that you can only pass when that level has been completed.

VortexSurfer

05-19-2005 at 06:02 PM
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silver
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How to ensure you can complete the 4 levels in "any order" while moving between the 4 levels, not using master walls or secret rooms, and still only allowing "winning" the hold after you do all 4 levels... (see attached file. shows a two hold case, but can be easily generalized)

I think this is kind of what VortexSurfer was saying, but a literal interpretation of his words would allow completing the entire hold after completing any level. I'm sure this diagram is what he was thinking, though




[Edited by silver at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 06:37 PM]

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05-19-2005 at 06:35 PM
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Tscott
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Maybe I'm confused, but I don't see how adding a brain to each re-entrance room on the first level will allow for movement back and forth between levels. What you outlined there is exactly how I set up my hold, except I just have each of the 4 re-entrance rooms marked as required but with nothing to kill.

Anyway, what we're talking about now wasn't my intention for this hold. I just offered a choice as to what order you solve the levels in, just be careful using the restore feature.

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And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-19-2005 at 07:10 PM
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silver
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Oh, right. Required works, too. I just always think there should be a monster in required rooms because I think it's weird that "just showing up" would count :).

So, yah. it sounds like you already have it set up so you can move between levels and still do them in any order, but need to do them all to leave. I don't see the problem.

(Just so you know where I was coming from: I was responding to Vortex' post without having seen your hold)


[Edited by silver at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 07:25 PM]

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05-19-2005 at 07:24 PM
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VortexSurfer
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quote:
silver wrote:
I think this is kind of what VortexSurfer was saying, but a literal interpretation of his words would allow completing the entire hold after completing any level. I'm sure this diagram is what he was thinking, though



Actually, this (see attachment) is what I was thinking of. It's very similar to your solution though.

Anyway, I have to admit I didn't see the part of the original hold either where it leads back to the main entrance. And this is getting somewhat off-topic, but I think we've about concluded the discussion anyway ...

VortexSurfer

[Edited by VortexSurfer at Local Time:05-19-2005 at 10:55 PM]
05-19-2005 at 10:44 PM
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StuartK
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silver wrote:
I don't see the problem.

Uncareful use of restore can lead to problems - skipping between levels, and using restore within a level you previously partially completed might mean the need to repeat other levels to finish the hold. Restore points within a single level could be from your current play session, or a previous session between which you finished other levels - and with the way restore is implemented, they'd be mixed together. Choose the wrong one and you lose your progress (and you won't be aware of the problem until you finish the current level)

Following on from my example above, when I repeat Jigsaw Feeling, if I were to use restore at all within that level while playing it, and the restore point were from my previous run through, my progress on the other 3 levels would effectively be lost, unless I search for a restore point where my progress is intact (and how to tell that when you can only view the current level map?)

I'm conscious I may be overemphasising the problem here - this hub design as it stands, though innovative, has a flaw which players need to be aware of, but the hold is still very much playable (and if you fall foul of the flaw, you get to play it even more ;) ) I'm still a big fan of TScotts holds, and they get some of my highest personal ratings.
05-20-2005 at 12:46 AM
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Tscott
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A couple other points I thought of if you find yourself in trouble with the non-linearity and restoring...

On the first level I've placed a checkpoint in each of the re-entrance rooms and also the entrance. Wise use of those should be enough to save your progress as you complete each level in succession. If you need to restore at the start of a level which you've previously left undone for whatever reason, instead restore at the re-entrance room on "make your choice" that has the save game with the most adjoining rooms visited to ensure all your progress counts. Once you're in that level you can then use checkpoints to lock in your current progress. Not all restore points from the room entrance will be from the current game, but I believe that checkpoints save the last time you stepped on them.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
05-20-2005 at 08:51 PM
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Stefan
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StuartK wrote:
If the exit rooms were all secrets, you could use a Master Wall to block the exit door. Of course since you have rooms marked as secret already, I'm assuming this would break other stuff...
This solution doesn't work. In order to open a master wall you have to conquer all secret rooms and end the hold. It would be like putting a required room behind a blue door.

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05-21-2005 at 08:47 AM
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StuartK
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quote:
Stefan wrote:
quote:
StuartK wrote:
If the exit rooms were all secrets, you could use a Master Wall to block the exit door. Of course since you have rooms marked as secret already, I'm assuming this would break other stuff...
This solution doesn't work. In order to open a master wall you have to conquer all secret rooms and end the hold. It would be like putting a required room behind a blue door.

True. Ummm, master walls could still be used, but only by allowing the player to end the hold, then restore to see the 'true' ending. Not pretty.

For a hub design, that leaves either just being careful with restore, or a secret code puzzle (with part of the solution at the end of each level) in the absense of any additions to the game engine.
05-21-2005 at 01:33 PM
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silver
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what's wrong with being careful with restore? I never restore more than one room back unless I've finished a hold and am looking for secrets.


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05-21-2005 at 09:36 PM
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Hatlore
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Hard. Dang hard hold. I finally completed it, with a paltry 12% of secrets. It's easy to tell you've come a long way as far as architecture goes, and the holds gradually increase in difficulty and fun. This is a truly fine hold.
06-07-2005 at 01:25 AM
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larrymurk
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Fine hold.. that is 4 holds in one.

Mostly average dificulty.

Generally good rooms.

I liked the architect's commentary in many rooms.
06-10-2005 at 04:13 PM
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Tscott
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I just wanted everyone to know I have uploaded a fixed version of this hold. 3 of the 4 levels are untouched (except for a typo fix in Impossible Cubes) and so all those demos should transfer. Jigsaw Feeling has a fix for 1N2W's unintended solution and has improved the placement of the commentary squares- you still can't backtrack more than one room by design, but you can now backtrack and step on all commentary squares from the immediately following room if you missed it in the course of your solution. As a result some rooms from this level will need to be replayed to upload demos.

And for those who have found all secrets
Click here to view the secret text


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"
06-23-2005 at 10:25 PM
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Rabscuttle
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quote:
Tscott wrote:
And for those who have found all secrets
Click here to view the secret text



Click here to view the secret text

06-27-2005 at 04:31 AM
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Alneyan
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I liked this hold overall: it was worth a 8 or a 9 in rating (probably 9 because of the architect's comments), and around 6 for difficulty.

Happyhouse put me off at first because of the fairly disorganised layout, with almost all rooms being on one side of the dungeon, instead of being spread more or less evenly (and the 4W rooms). My initial bad impression soon wore off though, and I enjoyed some of the rooms quite a lot: 2N, 1W is among my favourite rooms of the hold, with a very nice "how a situation can get out of control quickly" approach. There was no particularly weak rooms, with the notable exception of 2W: I have found the six queens in this room to be too much, as they did not make the room much harder, but they increased the length of the room quite a lot (2W is in the top 20 of the longest rooms at the moment, despite having been solved by StuartK).

Happyhouse is the level where my feelings are the most polarised: many of the ideas are original, but I think some rooms could have used some more polish. For that reason, I'm not sure how I feel exactly about that level.

Impossible Cubes had a strong concept with the 1W, 1N 1W and 2N 1W rooms, very enjoyable rooms to play. I have found some of the other rooms to be somewhat dull however, particularly 3N and 3N 2W; still, they did not make the hold any less enjoyable, so they were fine. Further in the hold, 1N 2W was very interesting, along with the secret Pandora's Box room and the serpent rooms right before the end. While I usually hate serpents with a passion, I enjoyed 1N 1E, perhaps because it did not rely on guessing the movement of the snake.

I have found 1S 1W to be disappointing compared to its sibling room (2N 1W), and 1S felt somehow lacking too (perhaps because the mother is too easy to reach?). Again, they weren't weak rooms, but simply puzzles which could have been expeded somewhat, I think. I much preferred the last room of this level, 3N 1E, especially compared to 2W in Happyhouse. Overall, Impossible Cubes was more balanced than Happyhouse, with less of a difference between the best and the worst rooms, and a much tidier layout.

Killing Jar was my favourite among the three initial holds, so I will have very little to say against this level. The square around 1N was the part of the level I found to be the weakest, but those rooms shine when trying to play in an efficient manner: while 1N 1E is a very easy room to handle, doing it quickly is another matter altogether, adding quite a lot of spice to the room. So in the end, I think 1N is the only room lagging behind the rest of the level, only because of the "unnecessary" trapdoors not near the force arrows. Still, I gather it was needed for aesthetics, and 1N is nowhere as awful as Dugan's level 15, even for players who share my hatred for trapdoors.

I thoroughly enjoyed all the other rooms on this level (2W excepted perhaps, where I preferred the Impossible Cubes version of this puzzle). Rooms like 2S or 3W were plenty of fun, second only to the secret room, which worked quite well I think. A very worthwhile level, when all is said and done.

But Jigsaw Feeling ultimately beat Killing Jar in my heart. I will admit I had strong reservations about that level at first, given how I generally feel about trapdoors, but your level was simply good. All the rooms were interesting and fun, and no matter how I try, I cannot find anything to fault with that level. 2W has a "swimming against the tide" feel to it, 3W is a nice variation on the "lead monsters around" variation, 1N 3W has a powerful concept behind it (especially the first part), 1N 2W is a great use of trapdoors, and 1N makes excellent use of tar, black doors and trapdoors. A truly good level, worth a 10 in my opinion.

Click here to view the secret text

08-04-2005 at 12:43 PM
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robin
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I loved it.
This is a hold where I have fun with. not to easy and not to hard. almost perfect!
Keep up the good job


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08-24-2005 at 11:44 PM
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NeonElephant
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In re Happy House: 3W, the text in the commentary is very interesting, because
Click here to view the secret text

10-04-2005 at 08:55 PM
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