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Rabscuttle
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icon Longest Rooms over all holds (+2)  
The longest rooms over all holds, based on current high scores.
Here are the top ten. If you're curious, the rest are in the attached file. It won't include room where I cannot see the high scores. "The Fool's Errand" is one example, there may be others.

Updated 20/5

66757 == Atch            == Caverns of Animus == The Long Ascent == 2N2E
10078 == Doom            == Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. == Level 2: Cliffs. == 28N
 6851 == StuartK         == H I J K == This Unrest == Ent
 6317 == Rabscuttle      == I Ching Contest Entries == I-Ching?  Ka-Ching! (Clayton) == 1N4W
 5000 == Stefan          == Smith Basement == Food Cellar == 1S
 3860 == Stefan          == Deep Hold == Level Eighteen - Slashfest == 1N1E
 3241 == silver          == Deep Hold == Level Nineteen - The Factory == 2E
 2775 == Stefan          == Bavato's Dungeon == Level 13 (The Stronghold) == 1N1E
 2727 == Stefan          == Bavato's Dungeon == Level 13 (The Stronghold) == 2N4E
 2408 == wallu           == The steps == 1st Level == 1S5W





[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:05-20-2005 at 05:18 PM]
05-09-2005 at 08:25 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+1)  
My demo of Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. : Level 2: Cliffs.: 28N should be on the list. It's 12155 moves long.

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05-09-2005 at 11:31 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
Nuts. It looks like most of the demos are missing for that level - possibly that page didn't load properly. Hmm...
05-09-2005 at 03:00 PM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
..or possibly I'm an idiot. I was shortening the room coordinates by taking the first character of every "word", so "28 North" was becoming "2N", and subsequently being overwritten by "29 North".

Identically named levels were also overwriting each other, although that was only affecting a few holds.

These problems should hopefully be fixed now.

124867 : Stefan          : Caverns of Animus - The Long Ascent : 2N2E
12155 : Stefan          : Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. - Level 2: Cliffs. : 28N
 6317 : Rabscuttle      : I Ching Contest Entries - I-Ching?  Ka-Ching! (Clayton) : 1N4W
 5000 : Stefan          : Smith Basement - Food Cellar : 1S
 4093 : Stefan          : Deep Hold - Level Nineteen - The Factory : 2E
 3860 : Stefan          : Deep Hold - Level Eighteen - Slashfest : 1N1E
 3219 : Stefan          : Deep Hold - Level Fourteen - The Linking Terminals : 4E
 2842 : silver          : Phil's Dungeon - Eighth Level : 1N2W
 2801 : Stefan          : Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. - Level 4: Lava : 10N
 2798 : Stefan          : Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. - Level 4: Lava : 1N1W



05-12-2005 at 06:43 AM
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Doom
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
quote:
Stefan wrote:
My demo of Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. : Level 2: Cliffs.: 28N should be on the list. It's 12155 moves long.
Over 2000 moves improvement O:-

I wonder if it's good or bad thing if your hold has lots of rooms in the top 10... (I've got 2 or 3 that would be in top 10 at the moment)
05-17-2005 at 11:34 AM
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Stefan
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quote:
Doom wrote:
quote:
Stefan wrote:
My demo of Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. : Level 2: Cliffs.: 28N should be on the list. It's 12155 moves long.
Over 2000 moves improvement O:-
Yup, it's probably possible to cut down a few thousand more moves, but I didn't really think at all when I played that room, I was just fooling around. It should also be possible to cut the move count for the Caverns of Animus room in half (or more, I think I made a few mistakes while playing that room), since my demo is a demo of the 'long' way to do the room (coolness/insanity factor is higher that way). Edit: I see that Atch already did that. Edit: Actually, none of my demos on the list are optimized in any way.
quote:
I wonder if it's good or bad thing if your hold has lots of rooms in the top 10... (I've got 2 or 3 that would be in top 10 at the moment)
I'd say that depends on the room(s) in question. If they are required and there are lots of them, then I don't think it's very good, but rooms such as the Caverns of Animus one (or This Unrest in H I J K) is OK IMO.

[Edited by Stefan at Local Time:05-17-2005 at 12:07 PM]

[Edited by Stefan at Local Time:05-17-2005 at 04:15 PM]

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05-17-2005 at 11:59 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
Heh, I reran the script a day or two ago and noticed that. :) Also, Atch has gotten the Long Ascent: 2N2E down to 66757.

A room can only make the list if someone is game enough to complete it. But I get the feeling that that won't be much of a problem.

05-17-2005 at 12:11 PM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
 2801 : Stefan          : Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins. - Level 4: Lava : 10N


I just took this one off the list. It's down to 1991 now. However, I haven't made any real attempt at optimising so I'm sure it's easily beatable. (Easily completing/reaching the room is another matter. :))

[Edited by KevG at Local Time:05-17-2005 at 04:12 PM]
05-17-2005 at 04:12 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+1)  
Summarising data is fun.

No, really.

Here are the longest holds by total movecount (of scorable rooms)

121501 Deep Hold
103853 Bavato's Dungeon
 90429 Caverns of Animus
 59122 Journey to Rooted Hold
 46212 Pitiful
 35838 Simon's Dungeon
 33125 Claythro Tower
 31346 Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins.
 26948 Mark's Penultimate Dungeon
 26373 King Reubus' Palace


And the top ten holds by average room length.
 1205.72 Caverns of Animus
  697.00 Bavato's Dungeon
  646.52 I Ching Contest Entries
  571.00 Tar Caves
  534.20 Garlonuss' Galley
  508.37 Deep Hold
  503.83 Dinfro Budkin's Wine Cellar
  503.00 Fortress of Eternity
  498.30 Dusty Dungeon
  467.85 Malcom, Brock, and Dave: Death by Goblins.


I've also updated the first post in the thread with the current top rooms.
05-20-2005 at 05:27 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Here are the longest holds by total movecount (of scorable rooms)
...
59122 Journey to Rooted Hold

Wow, so few moves?! I didn't know that. I'm curious: what is the fewest number of total moves a player can have to beat JtRH? That is, the total move count the game tells you on exiting the L25 stairs.

Testing, I think I took about 200,000 moves to master the hold with 100% secrets my first time through (excluding Dreamplane rooms, of course). I could pick secrets up along the way since I knew where they are, but I'm not so interested in the mastering part as the smallest number of total moves someone can achieve in conquering the hold.

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05-22-2005 at 12:24 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
Of course, it's including lots of solutions involving entering from the exit and/or exiting by the entrance, only the conquering time for rooms that require entry multiple times, and rooms that have 1-move demos but require more moves if you actually want to progress.

My 25 exit score is 193652, but I assume that's from my first play through, so it includes lots of first-time dithering and doesn't include all the secret rooms. And it includes undos and restores?

One way to look for a minimum is a JtRH-style level demos thread. Unfortunately, I think that there is no longer an easy way to calculate total moves from the demo file due to no longer counting mimic/decoy placement. The level total in game includes all times that the level has been visited so I can see it being annoying if you are trying to optimise a level that required revisiting. I guess there's always manually adding up. Which I guess isn't so terrible with 'show all demos'. Hmm..

Another possibility is a group effort, where a level is selected, different people provide individual rooms that are combined into a valid level demo.

[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:05-22-2005 at 08:45 AM]
05-22-2005 at 08:45 AM
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Does the scoring of Caverns of Animus include the hidden room that requires more than 66k moves to solve? If it does, then I'm genuinely surprised that it takes so few to conquer the hold.

um... that came out a lot more snobby than I intended, I'm just curious if the room was counted.

[Edited by DiMono at Local Time:06-03-2005 at 03:33 AM]

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06-03-2005 at 03:32 AM
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Rabscuttle
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Yes, it's including all high scores from the hold. I think the file I genereated the list from is the one attached to the first post of the thread (which is now a week or two old)
06-04-2005 at 10:36 AM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+2)  

Here's a big long text file, full of fun and exciting facts.

5 sections:

* ROOMS: Rooms in all holds ordered by moves.

* TOTAL MOVES: Holds ordered by total moves.

* AVERAGE MOVES: Holds ordered by average moves.

* PLAYERS: Players ordered by number of 1st places.

* HOLDS: Separate stats for each hold
-total rooms, total moves, average moves
-players sorted by firsts in that hold
-rooms in that hold sorted by moves.

--

Data should be accurate as of this post minus about 4 hours.
06-06-2005 at 03:08 PM
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StuartK
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quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Here's a big long text file, full of fun and exciting facts.


Now what would be really interesting, would be to take another snapshot, and compare the two, to see what has changed :)
06-14-2005 at 04:13 AM
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Rabscuttle
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I've actually already got a rough comparison program working :D

I'll just pretty up the results and get a current snapshot. (which should take about 45 minutes :blush)


[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:06-14-2005 at 06:36 AM]
06-14-2005 at 05:36 AM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
Here we go.

Stats file and a comparison file.

Useful for finding out who's beating your high scores ;)
06-14-2005 at 06:29 AM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
You know, I bet I could make a 5x5 room that took 100k+ moves to solve.
06-14-2005 at 07:32 AM
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
You know, I bet I could make a 5x5 room that took 100k+ moves to solve.
Do it without scripts and you're cool :)
06-14-2005 at 08:16 AM
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--Blast you and your easy dissemination of my trickery.
06-14-2005 at 08:20 AM
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StuartK
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quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
I've actually already got a rough comparison program working :D

I'll just pretty up the results and get a current snapshot. (which should take about 45 minutes :blush)


[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:06-14-2005 at 01:00 AM


Kickass. I'm impressed with what you did with War! (and the guards+mimics room in JTrH L25) Trying to do multiple mimic rooms efficiently just makes my head spin. Pitiful was just too big to optimise with the time I had available, when I was playing it (same with Deep Hold really, I've got alot of #1's but it's far from optimised) but I'll be having another look now ;)
06-14-2005 at 10:43 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (0)  
Thanks :cool Those multitude of mimic rooms don't make for obvious optimisation, and I've no doubt that the most of the rooms can still be bettered. I guess it's good that mimic placement moves no longer count or else it would be even more complex :eek O

-

Does anyone have any other suggestions for things to do with the high scores?

06-15-2005 at 02:38 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+2)  

Update!

Total Moves before: 1126988
Total Moves now: 1120807

7 new scores adding 1140 moves.
8 disappearing scores removing 438 moves.

180 scores have been improved by a total of 6883 moves.
0 scores have been worsened by a total of 0 moves.


06-20-2005 at 06:29 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+1)  
Another update. I did create a new set of stats a week or two ago but never uploaded them. I believe it was because it was just after hold updating had been enabled, so there were a lot of changes that would have been only temporary.

---

Total Moves before: 1120807
Total Moves now: 1131169

120 new scores adding 32838 moves.
33 disappearing scores removing 5605 moves.

551 scores have been improved by a total of 19231 moves.
24 scores have been worsened by a total of 2360 moves.

2 scores have changed owners.

07-07-2005 at 05:11 PM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+3)  
Useless information - Rooms grouped by their coordinates!

Not surprisingly, the extremes are dominated by rooms far off the beaten track (except for 2N2E which is perhaps a little skewed by a certain 60000 move room. :) )

Perhaps more interestingly, if you sort coordinates by how many rooms there are, there appears to be a definite skew towards the NE. If you sort by number of rooms, 1N1E is higher than 1S and just higher than 1W.

COORDS | ROOMS |  TOTAL |   AVG
-------+-------+--------+--------
   28N :     1 :   6760 : 6760.00
  1N6E :     1 :   1730 : 1730.00
  2N2E :    52 :  79291 : 1524.83
  8N7E :     1 :   1230 : 1230.00
   15N :     1 :   1215 : 1215.00
  1S6E :     1 :   1155 : 1155.00
  2N5W :     1 :   1106 : 1106.00
   13N :     2 :   2120 : 1060.00
  9N1W :     1 :   1033 : 1033.00
  8N1E :     1 :   1023 : 1023.00
...   
   17E :     1 :     10 : 10.00
 12S8E :     1 :      9 : 9.00
   16E :     1 :      9 : 9.00
 7S10E :     1 :      9 : 9.00
  4S4W :     1 :      5 : 5.00
 1S11E :     1 :      3 : 3.00




COORDS | ROOMS |  TOTAL |   AVG
-------+-------+--------+--------
   Ent :   460 :  72753 : 158.16
    1N :   234 :  59605 : 254.72
    1E :   223 :  58931 : 264.26
  1N1E :   191 :  60489 : 316.70
    1W :   190 :  51420 : 270.63
    1S :   171 :  53574 : 313.30
  1S1E :   156 :  46946 : 300.94
  1N1W :   153 :  41174 : 269.11
  1S1W :   125 :  35503 : 284.02
    2N :   124 :  30491 : 245.90
    2E :   112 :  31790 : 283.84
  2N1E :    90 :  23544 : 261.60
  1N2E :    82 :  27606 : 336.66
  2N1W :    82 :  16741 : 204.16
    2W :    78 :  22658 : 290.49
  1S2E :    75 :  22426 : 299.01
    2S :    72 :  21189 : 294.29

07-09-2005 at 02:43 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Perhaps more interestingly, if you sort coordinates by how many rooms there are, there appears to be a definite skew towards the NE. If you sort by number of rooms, 1N1E is higher than 1S and just higher than 1W.

Actually, that looks like something I once read in a psychology book. For some reason, when people are forced to make a choice between going left or right at a junction, they are far more likely to go right than left, which is perhaps where the preference for east over west comes from (perhaps because we read from left to right?). As for north and south, maybe because of the orientation of the room on the screen, moving in the north direction might look like you are moving forward (upward), compared to moving south, which looks like you are moving backward (downward) towards yourself, and the mind prefers moving forwards than backwards.

However, to be a little more serious, I found this happening while making Bavato's Dungeon; almost all of my levels went eastward (but not generally northward). Because of this, and some story constraints, I then changed all the level layouts on purpose to make the exit stairs east of the entrance stairs on every level, so making the entire dungeon "travel" eastwards as it descends. I believe this may have therefore skewed your count by some amount, since I think there are very few rooms west of the entrance stairs in any of the levels.

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07-10-2005 at 09:02 PM
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icon Re: Longest Rooms over all holds (+1)  
Yet another update.

-

Total Moves in first file: 1131169
Total Moves in second file: 1122650

33 new scores adding 4255 moves.
13 disappearing scores removing 2471 moves.

382 scores have been improved by a total of 10748 moves.
8 scores have been worsened by a total of 445 moves.

3 scores have changed owners.

07-22-2005 at 01:38 PM
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