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Someone Else
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I wouldn't be opposed to "no backtracking but there are N accessory slots to bring things forward".

But honestly, I doubt that the scrolls of might will become more usable later - +3 ATK has the most effect at lower ATK amounts. No backtracking might encourage using them where they actually make a difference.
09-04-2025 at 09:16 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
A smallish storage area that allows bringing a few accessories forward would be nice. Make it accessed through specific tiles and it should be unlikely to cause breaks.

SoM might be useful if getting over an ATK threshold saves a good amount of HP, which could be possible if levels have high-ATK, low-HP enemies.

Either way the flippers thing still needs to be fixed. As-is, it's a soft ban on using water. Like there is no way making the flippers permanently available this early on doesn't warp things in some way.

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09-04-2025 at 09:36 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I don't think there needs to be backtracking. Other than maybe the rattlesnake, there feels like very little reason you would want to return here.

I don't think the flippers needs to be "fixed". Architects should keep in mind that the player may have the portable crate/pickaxe/flippers, however. Both of my rooms for level 1 were made in consideration of potential accessory uses.
09-04-2025 at 10:45 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
The difference between the crate/pickaxe and the flippers is that the former two are single-use. The flippers render water passable for the rest of the hold.

This is bad, because the safest way to design around it is to make having the flippers gains nothing. Which is an incredibly pressing design contraint.

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09-04-2025 at 11:02 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
If there's no backtracking/inventory, to keep the flippers, you would have to leave all other accessories behind. There's no guarantee that would be worth it for the flippers, especially if architects do stop using water.
09-05-2025 at 01:10 AM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
The flippers are a lot more restrictive in how you can build a room than the pickaxe or portable crate, because they're not single use. The best the latter accessories will do is break a single room wide open for huge rewards which is good, but flippers are more likely to give you moderate rewards constantly for as long as you have them. I'm not completely opposed to keeping them around and just being very conscientious of when I use water, but unless basically everyone stops using water altogether they likely will end up better than the others on the level.

I was initially leaning more towards keep them in, but now I think I think the opposite and would rather see it fixed, at least for future floors, getting flippers for this floor is fine but it's the long term effects that concern me.

A widget of some kind that removes flippers but lets you keep other accessories during the resource drain maybe? Not sure exactly how you set something like that up though. You could maybe script an NPC that calls you out on stealing and takes them? Though that might feel bad for a player new to the hold who thought they were being sneaky and then they just get denied by scripting.

That all being said I was just throwing out an idea, honestly I'd rather it just be fixed so that you can't get them in the first place, its cleaner, and there are only a handful of places on the level that flippers are even helpful so it might just be wasted effort.

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 09-05-2025 02:32 AM]
09-05-2025 at 02:24 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I'm not terribly opposed to just taking them out - I assumed that they'd be mostly unstealable (like, maybe there's something on the third level that lets you come back and get them?) and just liked the look of the room. Make the path in and out thin ice and it'll keep the aesthetic well enough.
09-05-2025 at 04:52 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Looks like the strength of feeling for removing the flippers is strong enough that I'll remove the ability to take the flippers out of the room, so I'll implement Someone Else's suggestion to use thin ice to remove them.

Regarding backtracking, I agree that only the pickaxe, Scrolls of Might and maybe the Sting are really reasons to want to backtrack to this level, and it would be less tedious to just not allow that to remove all the travel.

Taking the pickaxe with you has to compete with not using it for 10 attack, which sounds plenty strong already, so I imagine once the flippers are removed it'll be extremely likely that people will bring the portable crate with them. Sure I could add in some slots that will carry scrolls of might and the Sting if they'd like to keep access to that equipment. It would also make bringing the pickaxe with you more of a decision.

The default goblin enemies are in range for the next level. So the Sting has use there, as a small weapon it would allow disarm tricks for trapdoors though, but we have Thin Ice these days so less of an issue than free disarming would have been in RPG 1 days.

No backtracking it is.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-05-2025 10:20 AM]
09-05-2025 at 10:18 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Alright, I played through the level.

It's great fun. Getting started is a series of interesting decisions, with it only starting to become substantially easier once you get the wooden sword. I don't think it's too hard, it seems there's still plenty of resources. Good job everyone!

The decision for 3 ATK vs 6 DEF is a great one, not clear to me what's correct.

Xindaris, the Tar Roach seems to have more HP for the first fight than all subsequent fights. Is this correct? It appears like its a bug and suspect most players will think it is.

My end stats, with the rattlesnake unfought:
Click here to view the secret text

I did not pick up the custom equipment.

It's clear there is an overabundance of keys and greckles that need taking away. Shovel count seems fine.
09-06-2025 at 07:48 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v3.drh (38.3 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (0)  
v3 Changelog:
- Boss, resource drain, end of level and scorepoint added!
- Added autosaves to equipment pickups (except scrolls of might)
- Added some autosave checkpoints throughout. I had to remove a wall in some rooms to put the checkpoint somewhere where fast travel won't run over it.
- Added map icons for pickaxe and portable crate.
- Added image for scrap shield (thanks, LovaP48!)
- Made flippers unstealable

The remaining todo list
- Update portable crate to not destroy t-layer items.
- Change/Remove map icons when equipment collected / boss defeated

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-06-2025 08:01 PM]
09-06-2025 at 07:52 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (0)  
While there's still some things on the todo list, they don't impact balance and so is something I can do during the signup and building phases of Round 2. We can also keep making tweaks to Round 1 as we go along. Really we can keep tweaking until final publication.

So it's time to start Round 2.

We have separate signups for each round, so post in this thread if you're interested. You can keep discussing the first level while we do this, of course.
09-06-2025 at 08:11 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
Sure, I may as well do round 2 too.

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09-06-2025 at 08:24 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
Count me in!

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09-06-2025 at 08:47 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
Sure, I'm staying in.

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09-06-2025 at 09:01 PM
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
I'm up for round 2 as well!

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09-06-2025 at 09:03 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote: Xindaris, the Tar Roach seems to have more HP for the first fight than all subsequent fights. Is this correct? It appears like its a bug and suspect most players will think it is.

That sounds like a bug for sure. I must have messed up the code somehow. I will investigate right now.

EDIT: Looks like a bad paste job from the custom monster I was copying its tar behavior from.

The 10th line says
  Set var "_MyHP" = 150

and should say
  Set var "_MyHP" = 500



...And I'm in on round 2. Already got an interesting idea for something, if I can get it to work.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-06-2025 10:02 PM]
09-06-2025 at 10:00 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
I'm in for another round.
09-06-2025 at 10:13 PM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
I'm also still in for round 2.

Unrelated to that, in 3s1w there are some blue doors, but you're currently draining all 3 blue keys from the player at the end so these can only be opened by a skeleton key or you lose at the end of level one. maybe these should be green doors instead?

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 09-06-2025 10:27 PM]
09-06-2025 at 10:19 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
I'm interested in round 2, too.
09-06-2025 at 10:24 PM
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kieranmillar
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PigmyWubba wrote:
I'm also still in for round 2.

Unrelated to that, in 3s1w there are some blue doors, but you're currently draining all 3 blue keys from the player at the end so these can only be opened by a skeleton key or you lose at the end of level one. maybe these should be green doors instead?

These are opened by pressure plates in the room and are designed as a 3rd door colour you're not meant to open. The rewards they block can be obtained by spending a yellow key, there's zero chance you'd ever spend a blue here.
09-06-2025 at 10:34 PM
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PigmyWubba
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kieranmillar wrote:
These are opened by pressure plates in the room and are designed as a 3rd door colour you're not meant to open. The rewards they block can be obtained by spending a yellow key, there's zero chance you'd ever spend a blue here.

I saw the plate, I see what you mean though. I guess the blue doors are just being used as a third unopenable door type in this room.

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09-06-2025 at 10:40 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
Still in for round two.
(Would appreciate any further feedback on my rooms (the Scroll of Might ones) if anyone has any, since I'm about to be making more~)
09-06-2025 at 10:46 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
I'm in

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09-07-2025 at 04:45 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Signups } (+1)  
Count me in for round 2 as well!

[Last edited by Someone Else at 09-07-2025 04:49 AM]
09-07-2025 at 04:49 AM
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Xindaris
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Thelas wrote:
Still in for round two.
(Would appreciate any further feedback on my rooms (the Scroll of Might ones) if anyone has any, since I'm about to be making more~)

Purely from the perspective of a player who's not actually very good at this kind of game:
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-07-2025 05:19 AM]
09-07-2025 at 05:15 AM
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mxvladi
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I'm in for round 2.
09-07-2025 at 06:03 AM
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Pachy
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I'm interested in Round 2.
09-07-2025 at 05:43 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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I want to participate in round 2.

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09-07-2025 at 09:38 PM
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Citrus
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I didn't realize I need to sign up each round! I'll participate.

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09-07-2025 at 10:20 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v4.drh (44.8 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Building Phase } (0)  
v4 changelog:
- Fixed HP recovery of tar roach.
- There's now an inventory token in various rooms that warp you to an inventory with lots of spare equipment slots. I added them to all rooms with equipment, plus start room and boss room, but can add it in more places if needed.
- Level 2 template.

Alright here's Round 2. 15 people again!

Here's the numbers you are assigned to:

1) mauvebutterfly
2) Citrus
3) blorx1
4) Someone Else
5) mxvladi
6) Nuntar
7) PigmyWubba
8) Thelas
9) komachi
10) Red-XIII
11) bomber50
12) Chaco
13) Pachy
14) Xindaris
15) hyperme

You have one week to submit your rooms to this thread:
https://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=46985
negative 2 weeks, 4 days
You no longer need to tell me about what map icons you want. I wanted to see what people chose to add icons for, but we need to come up with something consistent across the hold.

Our level this time is Gorge George's Gorge. Background theming is in a conversation in the start room. It has the Swamp style and some rain. The level is split into two halves, each player has a room in each half.

It has x2 multiplier. As they are new, worth mentioning that shovel pickups also increase with the multiplier, but not the dirt block costs.

Greckle gates cost 200 greckles. I went for a high number last time but clearly undershot it anyway. We have another big level, so not taking any chances this time. You can expect the player to be able to open one right away.

Level-specific rules
- The swamp level style can't be changed, nor can the rain.
- Some rooms in the middle of the gorge have Windy ambiance, this can't be changed.
- You are not allowed to place any equipment that adds more than 30 total to player stats. In the weapon menu everything up to and including the Staff is allowed. In the Shield menu, up to and including the mirror shield.

Stat guidance
- Expected player starting stats could be 3000-6000 HP, 68-82 ATK, 66-72 DEF, 200-300 GR, 3-6 yellow keys, 1-4 green keys, a skeleton key and 10-20 shovels.
- Expected player starting equipment is the wooden equipment, a couple of Scrolls of Might, a portable crate, possibly a pickaxe, and possibly the custom small weapon with goblin weakness.
- Last time we ended up on average with 2 ATK and DEF per room. As the multiplier is now twice as large, if the trend continues then we would get about 4 ATK and DEF per room, leaving player stats at the end roughly around 200 each.
- At the start of the level, row 4 (Goblin to swordsman) are OK, with mad eyes slightly relevant still. In the latter half, it might be row 5 (Red Guard to Seep) but it all depends on how many stats we get. If the average gems per room isn't the same as last time, then row 5 might be too tough (although damage from waterskippers and seep will be fine anywhere).
- The goblin king may also be relevant at the start.
- Of course, there's always mist and brains to make earlier monsters more relevant, but neither of those help when ATK is high enough to one-shot. For ATK there's disarm tokens I guess? Oremites might be relevant too.

Last round had an overabundance of keys, and nobody dared to place any blue doors, but the equipment situation worked out well.

You are allowed to use any custom things from previous rounds. The custom enemies won't be relevant, except maybe the boss, Kobold King, but he'll most likely still be tough even by the end of the level.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-07-2025 11:46 PM]
09-07-2025 at 11:30 PM
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