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Nuntar
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
Summarising the results so far, this is the first impossible room with each weapon/gimmick:

Raygun: Level 2 2N, 1E and 2E
Darts: Level 4 1N and 1S1E (skippable); Level 7 1N
Raydarts: Level 1 1N1W

Staff: Level 1 3N2W (first unsolvable room); Level 1 4N1W (blocks progression)
Caber: Level 3 2N1W, 1N1E, 2S2W
Dagger: Level 6 1W (skippable); Level 7 1N
Spear: Level 10 1N1W
Pickaxe: No impossible rooms!

Halph: Probably none (Level 13 2S2W has enough space to get around Halph)
Slayer: Unknown (Level 1 6N2W is possible; see below)

Just for fun, I had a look for all the rooms that are possible with the staff. There are not many!

Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-20-2023 06:22 PM]
12-19-2023 at 04:30 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
Someone Else wrote:
With the Slayer, L1 6N2W is impossible.
You might be surprised how little space is required to kill a Slayer.
12-19-2023 at 11:18 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
TFMurphy wrote:
Someone Else wrote:
With the Slayer, L1 6N2W is impossible.
You might be surprised how little space is required to kill a Slayer.
Yeah, yeah. I contend that "kill the slayer in every room" is not fulfilling the spirit of this challenge.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 12-20-2023 01:43 AM]
12-20-2023 at 01:41 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
Someone Else wrote:
Yeah, yeah. I contend that "kill the slayer in every room" is not fulfilling the spirit of this challenge.
Not sure your contention is simply whether the Slayer is killable or not: I don't think this would be an issue if there was a Mimic or Invisibility Potion in the room to make killing the Slayer trivial.

But very well. This room is *also* possible to complete without killing the Slayer.
12-20-2023 at 02:23 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
I mean, the question is "can we beat KDD with this extra challenge?" and if you just use fancy footwork to kill the slayer in every room which would otherwise be impossible it's not really "beat KDD with the slayer" it's "beat KDD, but you have to kill the slayer a bunch too". If there's a way to easily kill the slayer in ways that it was intended the slayer be killable, that seems like a non-issue to me.

I've been trying 6N1W for a while now, and I still can't get it. Either I push him out of the 1-wide tunnel with sword/hook facing SE/SW and he goes to (28,27) where I can't budge him further, or he hits the orb and I'm stuck. Can I have a hint?


12-20-2023 at 03:53 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
Fancy footwork is pretty much the name of the game for any kind of Slayer manipulation. In most rooms, the techniques required to kill are much more difficult or restricting than just completing the room normally. But in other rooms, it's much easier to just kill the Slayer than to figure out what arcane route you have to take to complete the room without doing so (JtRH's L7 1E challenge being a rather classic example where the large majority of players haven't found the pacifist route through it).

So in this respect, I'd see "KDD but with Slayer" as a particularly basic addition to every room, and figuring out the impossibility of each room should allow you to take any intrinsic flaws the element has into account. It's also not yet proven whether the Slayer could be killed in every room of KDD under that added condition.

"KDD but with a Slayer you're not allowed to kill" would be an extra restriction over and above the basic change -- it's still an interesting thought experiment that would benefit from analysis, but it's something extra over "KDD plus X". And it's also a *different* consideration than "KDD but with a Slayer where you can only kill it in rooms where it would be relatively trivial to kill".

I'd suggest any further analysis on this particular constraint should allow for killing the Slayer, but should also highlight rooms where killing the Slayer is the *only* possible way to solve the room.


As for your problems with L1 6N2W:
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by TFMurphy at 12-20-2023 08:36 AM]
12-20-2023 at 08:35 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
There's red serpents in KDD, but this time Beethro's bringing along his own two pythons.

You've seen the ray gun, but have you seen these guns?

Engage in some roach-a-dope, marquis of roach-queensbury rules, and punch your way through King Dugan's Dungeon.

---

ok, it's just kind of like a dagger where you don't move when stabbing.

---

Also, I added a trapdoor thing that drops trapdoors even if Beethro is unarmed (so to speak), could add that to the other swordless things to make red door levels more interesting.


12-20-2023 at 09:40 AM
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bbb
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+2)  
Pickaxe: KDD is clearable with a pickaxe.

Spear: I couldn't solve L25 1N2W with a spear. I was able to clear the rest (including 2S) of the level.

I hope to send a comparison and interesting issues I noticed later.
12-20-2023 at 11:00 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+2)  
Finished looking at rooms solvable with a staff; results are at the top of the page.

Level 5 1S2E: It's possible to clear all the queens, but I can't find a way to safely enter and leave the NE chamber, even pushing a sleeping eye for extra cover.

Level 18 2N3E is possible.

Level 20 3N just has too many roaches spawning; this also applies to all Level 21 rooms (although many of those are also impossible for obvious reasons such as brains that can never be pushed out of dead ends).

Level 24 1N2W is almost possible, but the queen is too far away from the pit, so there is no way to kill the roaches and have time to reach her before the next spawn.

Pretty much all other rooms are either possible or can be eliminated for obvious reasons. Let me know if I missed any possible rooms, though!

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12-20-2023 at 05:51 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
Okay, TFMurphy is right, and L1 is possible. L2:3N is the first room where it's probably faster with the slayer than without (you can skip one loop).

L2:2E is a pain, but it is possible to push the slayer all the way back through. Up to level 5 now.
12-20-2023 at 09:22 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
Update on the slayer: every room is possible without killing the slayer (except by mimic) up until L12: 2N1E, including the rest of Level 12.
12-21-2023 at 06:41 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+2)  
I think these are the rooms which can't be cleared/passed with a dagger.
Click here to view the secret text


Clearing KDD with each of a spear/pickaxe/dagger was an interesting challenge.
12-24-2023 at 07:21 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
This thread had a hand in inspiring me to come up with the "GUN" concept for my recent contest entry.

So, in honor of that...here's King Dugon's Dungeon, but Beethro has a GUN.

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Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Xindaris at 02-20-2024 09:39 PM]
02-18-2024 at 02:36 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (+1)  
I adjusted the script slightly to also make you swordless.

There are a few problems with the script if you shoot adjacent monsters while swordless, but I figured those out (not sure if I did in general, though).

With your only armament a GUN, L2:1N is impossible, as are L2:1E and L2:2E. L2:1S1E and L2:1S2E are both possible.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 02-20-2024 03:06 AM]
02-20-2024 at 03:05 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
Ah, thanks for the heads-up! This is a fairly dumb oversight, and I fixed it by adding this under "If.." in the "obstacle test" part of the code:

Click here to view the secret text


It's fixed in my post above, too.

As for it not playing well with Set Player Weapon Off, that I was aware of.

EDIT: If disarmed+GUN is hard to make work in a lot of rooms, I wonder if all rooms are possible using stick+GUN?

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Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Xindaris at 02-21-2024 03:13 AM]
02-20-2024 at 09:40 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: King Dugan's Dungeon and Halph (0)  
L3:3N is impossible with stick+GUN, because the mimic doesn't also have a GUN. ...and now I can't go back and clear the rest of the level.
02-21-2024 at 11:01 PM
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