mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

File: Quake and Quail.drh (9.5 KB)
Downloaded 21 times.
License: Public Domain

For NaDRODArchMo this month I've been working on my first RPG project, and I have a first draft for the first level completed.

I've played through this level a bunch of times and so far have mixed feelings about it. Mostly, I have no idea about the difficulty. I guess it's fine for the first level to be easy, but whether or not this first level actually is easy probably depends on how many resources you need to take to the second level.

Regardless, I'd be curious what other people think of this concept.

There is also going to be an obvious challenge within the hold to get to the end with a positive reputation. I've mostly been testing without worrying about my reputation, but I've done both ways and the first level is pretty lenient with resources, so I doubt anyone will struggle to hit the first scorepoint with a positive reputation as the hold stands currently.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

---

[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 11-09-2023 11:33 PM]

Kaelyn
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 76
Registered: 01-21-2019
IP: Logged

I liked this a lot!

Right off the bat, my stats:

I got every gem, key, and potion except for the two potions behind the NW evil eye in 2E. I also chose to blow up the big potion in 1S, but score-wise, that's better than spending a key on it. I'm not sure it's worth killing the roach queen early to get both big potions. I didn't need to break the statues.

I didn't try to optimize this at all. I took some risky gambles early on and they paid off, but that's probably because the hold isn't too punishing yet. I've no doubt other adventurers will come along with much better scores.

Onto the level set itself,

We've seen a lot of level sets with both ATK and DEF gems, and several with ATK-only, but this might be the first one that goes DEF-only. DEF is a really good stat because every point is equally useful. It's fun to see just how different the game is when you don't have to deal with ATK gates!

I also really liked how the red scroll completely revealed the rooms. This made exploring 2E much less of a gamble. I wish more level sets did this!

You can go back up the stairs in Toolshed. It ends the hold.

It might be a good idea to put bridge tiles under the area around the character that teleports you to First Level. Right now, the dirt floors don't seem like something that could rot and let people fall through.

If you enter 1W, leave, and come back with less health, the guards immediately tell you to watch it. I got the impression this script was supposed to fire if you stepped into one of their swords, but I might be wrong. (Also, why don't the guards help you or arrest you? No one's supposed to be wandering the dungeons.)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how my choices will ruin me when the Second Level comes out. Thanks for making this!

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

Thanks for checking it out.

I spent several more hours messing with this when I should have been sleeping, but I'm a bit happier with how the first level feels now.

I've taken your suggestions and fixed both the guard script and used bridges in the toolshed. I'll have the guards actually do something eventually, probably.

Hold is updated in the first post. Sorry to those who've been playing the old version. I probably shouldn't've been in such a rush to post something when I was still actively working on it.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 91
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

Finished this up without blowing either bomb in the Queen's room. I used both statues, but looking at how it ended up, I probably could do it again without them.

This started off very hard for me. I tried four or five times and always found myself stuck without anywhere to make progress. Figuring out that I was trying to be too clever in 2E was the breakthrough I needed. There are a number of obvious, clever-looking things you can try in that room and all of them cost me a lot more than they were worth. I imagine you have an approach in mind, but I never found it. Barreling through put me in a good position for everything else. Similarly, I found the clever solution to 1N1W to get everything without spending a key, but never managed to have quite enough stats for it. Presumably a better solution to 2E would make that possible, but I ended up spending 1 key to get everything. Or maybe there's a better clever solution, since there are weird nuances to exactly where eggs grow that always elude me.

I'm going to disagree slightly with Kaelyn on DEF-only holds. I tend to be a DEF-path player and the thing I've learned is that, without changes to ATK, it mostly doesn't matter very much what order you do things in. It's vitally important that you do the right things the right way (see the previous paragraph), but doing one before the other tends to be a difference of just a few HP. So, for example, the clever solution to 1N1W needs you to start with over 566 HP if you have no DEF gems. Each gem means you can start 43 HP lower and saves a total of 61 HP, but that has to be balanced against what the DEF gem in the corner would have saved you getting the gems you're counting. So the real ordering challenge is less the net gain and more "When have I done enough work elsewhere that this is even possible?" And also "Why am I spending all these HP being clever, just to save myself a yellow key?"

So all of that means DEF-only delving means figuring out lots of individually puzzle-centric rooms like 2E and 1N1W and either doing stuff in basic rooms like 2N immediately (bottom half) or never (top half (I mean, eventually, but if I can come back up from the forthcoming second floor, I'll wait until it's much cheaper)). I think this has the potential to be an interesting, fun hold, but all the above is just something to keep in mind. Anguishing over ordering for a difference of a few HP is fun for hardcore optimizers, but the rest of us are probably just going to ignore a bunch of stuff.

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

Thanks for trying out the hold.

2E is a strange room. I actually have 3 separate "intended" paths for it and I tried to balance them all initially, but then I realised that if I balanced them too much it wouldn't matter what choices the player made so I stopped tinkering with it. I'm still not completely happy with it though, since the optimal route is currently the least interesting one in that room, at least in my opinion.

You're definitely correct about the lack of ATK making each action feel relatively inconsequential. I'm not sure how much I can actually do about that given the DEF-only restraint that this hold has. If nothing else, I guess this hold can serve as an example of why DEF-only isn't as interesting or popular as other types of holds.

I'm not sure how much you care about score, but one thing I think could definitely improve this hold is to multiply your health by 40 at score checkpoints so that every hit point matters. I guess that's something that will appeal more to the hardcore optimisers though. Given the relatively small differences a +1DEF gem makes, that may be the ideal way to do a hold like this.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

greenscience
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 141
Registered: 02-27-2015
IP: Logged

DEF only does constrain the design space by quite a bit. Tactical Nexus's Tactical Tower D is a variant with abundant DEF but very few ATK and makes ATK as hard to get as Blue Key or Equipment.

Multiplying health by 40 might make this too similar to RPG Mini but there are still ways to create interesting choices with just DEF gems.

Making hp very scarce and adding hot tiles or Evil Eye hits makes the order in which you do things matter more, but limits the hold to more hardcore optimisers. One typical alternative is to be more lenient when going through levels but add a bonus boss who requires reaching a specific amount of hp.

There is a bunch you can do with equipment. While all default weapons give you ATK you can create a custom weapon with 0 ATK like the Foil from Getting Your Stuff Back in order to attack first. Add oremites to make it less clear whether getting Foil is worth it. Oremites create choices between using using stronger metal shields or the weaker Wooden Shield (or custom non-metal shield like Leather Shield from Castle Repton). The Invisibility Potion, Speed Potion, and Hand Bomb add extra options to combat although you need a weapon to make use Invisibility Potion for fighting.

There are other interesting behaviors for custom equipment. Shields can have the no enemy defense behavior to block custom enemies with the same behavior if you add them to this hold. Others are surprised from behind on all equipment, attack first on shields or accessories (only useful when you have weapon), or 0 ATK weapon with Goblin/Wyrm weakness.

---

[Last edited by greenscience at 07-15-2020 06:37 PM]

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

I enjoyed this quite a bit. I'm not sure how to optimize it - if I can't come back up, things change a lot. For instance,



Assuming I can never return, though, my stats:



Using the statues, I got:

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

I think this hold might also be finished. Top post has been updated.

The main thing I'm still deliberating over is the way that scorepoints are handled. Since this is a DEF-only hold, decisions don't actually result in much of a difference in player health. Currently, HP is multiplied by 40 at the scorepoints to make decisions matter more. I could easily scrap this though and just use the regular metric for score.

I'm personally leaning towards NOT multiplying health by 40, but I'm receptive to feedback on this point.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2670
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

I decided to record my first impressions of this hold.

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

Thanks for the video playthrough. It was quite educational.

It's slightly unfortunate timing, since I was planning on updating this hold soon. (Been working a lot on Fendik's Fortress, but I finally sent that to HA yesterday, so I have more time for other things again.) I'd appreciate thoughts on the changes I was thinking of, and I'll see about fixing up some things on levels 2 and 3 as per your video suggestions.

Two changes I had been considering:

1. Scrap the multiplying of health for scorepoints. Back when this hold was just the first level, I found that all of my playthroughs were very similar in score because reordering things to save 6 health wasn't making much of a difference in score. Since the score was still balanced around standard health/key values in my head, some later trades ended up being weird.

2. Add a lategame money sink. I would probably add a new room to the third level where the player can trade greckles for something. Haven't really decided on what that would be though. I like how tight and useful money is early on, but by the end it suddenly just stops being important.

The second point also highlights another issue with this hold. Most of my testing was done on the challenge path (kill the quails, don't take the golden roaches). Despite this, I am still able to buy everything I want even with the reduced money of this path. A lategame use for money would make for more interesting choices, and it would let the easier path still have a use for money. As you pointed out in the video, once evil eyes become free there will be a lot of money, so I need to take that into consideration as well.

Basically, I need to test more on the wealthy path and make sure the endgame still offers interesting choices there.

I definitely consider the first level to be the most interesting, so I might try adding more to levels two and three to make the decisions there less linear.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2670
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

To me, the main issue that's causing issues in your later levels is clear: you need to stop sticking with the stock monsters. I assume only using stock was part of the original design plan, but it doesn't mesh with your stat growths.

I believe the reason why your second and third levels got cut so short was because you simply ran out of valid monsters to fight. Can't use most of stock because they have more than 10 DEF, but Roaches and Evil Eyes become free. So all you're left with is Wraithwings, Roach Queens and Mud Babies, or Goblins solely as unkillable sentries. You could consider brains, but these don't play nicely with some of these, and without brains Mud Babies are simply too expensive anyway, over 600 damage, who's gonna fight those?

Custom monsters solve two issues:
1) They let you get back to placing monsters that work with the available DEF growth like Level 1 could.
2) Instead of worrying about a money glut when Evil Eyes become free, replace all the ones you are not expected to kill with a custom version that has the same stats but doesn't drop any GR, now there's no value in backfarming. Don't forget you can also just make greckle gates more expensive too, there's a global multiplier variable that controls their cost.

One last point: The actual relative score value of keys and stats vs HP doesn't actually matter for gameplay unless you're trying to optimise for score, so it doesn't really matter if keys are only worth 10 HP, what's more important while playing is the relative cost of getting and spending keys. Having said that, it is nice when they're not completely out of whack, like they are here when you multiply HP by 40.

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

I admit I hadn't considered using custom monsters, but that would definitely fix the main issues I've been having.

I wasn't planning on this becoming a big hold, so I'll probably try to keep changes minimal, but I think I should at least rebalance the second and third levels while adding a few more rooms. Level 3 in particular feels kind of pointless. It's currently just free loot for getting there.

I think for score it makes more sense to just go with the standard rules, so I'll definitely be making that change.

Thanks for the feedback and for checking out the hold.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
IP: Logged

After nearly a year of agonizing over this hold, I came to the conclusion that I really liked the first level and that the hold quickly overstayed its welcome after that point. Thus I have finally made a decision: I'm cutting out everything after the first level and just releasing this as a tiny single-level experience.

I appreciate kieranmillar's feedback and did seriously consider custom monsters, but at the end of the day I decided that the DEF-only restriction wasn't something I was interested in trying to do any more with.

Since the first level was pretty good and hasn't really changed, I'm planning to submit this to HA by the end of the month. If anyone wants to run through this quickly I appreciate the extra eyes, but I don't think that this really needs much testing at this point.

____________________________
106th Skywatcher