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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (A multiple question poll)
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RankEntryAverageStandard Deviation
1Lost Temple of Ankistralusida8.71428571428571.0301575072754
2Score for "Isle of Transfiguration"8.42857142857140.90350790290525
3Score for "sssss"8.14285714285710.98974331861079
4Score for "Fade Away"7.57142857142861.4982983545288
5Double Sided Mirror71.7728105208558
Score for "sssss"
12345678910
Average Vote 8.1428571428571
Standard Deviation 0.98974331861079

Score for "Isle of Transfiguration"
12345678910
Average Vote 8.4285714285714
Standard Deviation 0.90350790290525

Score for "Fade Away"
12345678910
Average Vote 7.5714285714286
Standard Deviation 1.4982983545288

Double Sided Mirror
12345678910
Average Vote 7
Standard Deviation 1.7728105208558

Lost Temple of Ankistralusida
12345678910
Average Vote 8.7142857142857
Standard Deviation 1.0301575072754
Total Votes 8 100%
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
It's voting time again.

We've got five entries for the Custom Element Revival Show contest.

Go play them and cast your votes.

Deadline for this poll is about three weeks from now.

Huge thanks to the participating architects!

P.S. To all architects: don't forget to rate your own entry 10/10. That seems to be the custom on this forum.
P.P.S. Turns out the architect names show up in the level transition screens. I messed that up somehow. Sorry for that, but I guess it's ok to leave it as it is.

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 04-03-2020 10:19 AM]
04-02-2020 at 09:25 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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File: Custom Element Revival Show.hold (89.9 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
And here's the compilation hold.

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04-02-2020 at 09:25 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
I normally try to do LPs of contest holds while I'm playing through them during the voting period.

Since I can't record at the moment, I'm just letting people know in the hopes that someone else can do a playthrough of the entries.


There are fewer entries than I was expecting. I'm curious to see what elements people chose to work with.

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04-03-2020 at 12:08 AM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
quote:
mauvebutterfly wrote:
There are fewer entries than I was expecting. I'm curious to see what elements people chose to work with.


Hydra
Swap-o-tron
Multi-use trapdoors
Double headed serpent
Hookshot
04-03-2020 at 12:37 AM
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disoriented
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
A warning for those doing LPs: I don't know if it's possible to return to the hub after exiting Lost Temple 1E to the north. You may be required to finish the entire entry first.

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[Last edited by disoriented at 04-03-2020 07:09 AM]
04-03-2020 at 01:17 AM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
quote:
disoriented wrote:
A warning for those doing LPs: I don't know if it's possible to return to the hub after exiting Lost Temple 1E to the north. You may be required to finish the entire entry first.


(14,5) and hookshot SW should get you out.
04-03-2020 at 01:35 AM
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mxvladi
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File: Custom Element Revival Show demo pack.demo (21 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+4)  
Here's demos for all entries in case you're stuck somewhere and want to see how things are supposed to work.

I may have broken a room or two though O:-

Notably WTF solution: 1S in swap-a-tron level. Apparently swap-a-trons and clones don't work very well together. I'll note that this is an issue (or a feature) of swap-a-tron scripting in general.
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by mxvladi at 04-06-2020 08:20 AM]
04-04-2020 at 12:16 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
Hmm… needed more testing. You only broke one of my rooms, so I guess that's not too bad.

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04-04-2020 at 02:48 AM
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File: Double Sided Mirror.hold (14.3 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
I wouldn't normally do this in the middle of voting, but since I didn't like the way mxvladi solved one of my rooms (two headed serpents could've been roaches with his solution) I have uploaded a change.

For voting feel free to use the original submission to form your impressions, but attached is a modified 2N that you can either try out now or leave for the published version of the contest hold once the contest has concluded.

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04-04-2020 at 09:21 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+4)  
I'm currently doing a video playthrough of the entries! As you might expect, this contains my solutions and commentary on each entry, so if you're still working on the entries yourself and want to create your own opinions / votes, finish that work first! Otherwise, sit back and enjoy - I'll try to get an episode out every couple of days or so.

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Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
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04-06-2020 at 12:56 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+5)  
me too. listen to my unedited mumbly ramblings if you want.
playlist


[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-08-2020 02:14 PM]
04-06-2020 at 01:21 PM
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File: CERS Isle of Transfiguration 2N1W Victory.demo (4.7 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
Posting a (probably) unintended alternate solution just in case the architect considers it something worth fixing for the possibility of a holds board promotion down the line. :)
Click here to view the secret text

04-08-2020 at 06:34 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
Rabscuttle appears to have found some kind of bug in the swapotron?
https://youtu.be/ZQSPRN30rD0?t=254
I can't identify any reason why it would suddenly stop working in that situation.

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04-08-2020 at 09:11 PM
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File: CERS Isle of Transfiguration 1W Victory.demo (9 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
demo attached if anyone wants it
04-08-2020 at 09:51 PM
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mxvladi
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File: CERS Isle of Transfiguration 1S Victory.demo (2.2 KB)
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
quote:
Xindaris wrote:
Rabscuttle appears to have found some kind of bug in the swapotron?
https://youtu.be/ZQSPRN30rD0?t=254
I can't identify any reason why it would suddenly stop working in that situation.


Apparently it breaks if there's too much monsters.

Managed to reproduce it if I screw around in 1W for too long and spawn too many roaches.

Tried making some test cases in editor, for me it starts misbehaving at 37+roaches (I can switch them to queens, then back to roaches, then it stops working).

If you place *a lot* of monsters in the room, it won't even switch all of them to a different type if you step on it. Naturally this applies to all of swap-a-trons, not just roach-roachqueen one.

Try making a room full of roaches, place a roach-switching swap-a-tron there and see what happens when you step on it.


Also since we're speaking about swap-a-tron bugs, I think you'll like my demo for 1S in that level (see my earlier post here) :P EDIT: actually I'll just post it here separately, in case you don't want to watch the whole demo pack

[Last edited by mxvladi at 04-08-2020 10:59 PM]
04-08-2020 at 10:38 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
It's presumably running into the maximum number of set statements that disables the character?

I would have thought this would have been spotted in swap-o-tron 2N2E, where you have to maneuver a queen/roach around an S to hit a plate, and if you're not careful things can get out of hand. Although in that one you're activating each token only once.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-08-2020 11:05 PM]
04-08-2020 at 11:05 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
The odd thing is I didn't really encounter that "too many entities" bug in my own testing of 1W. But then, my strategy was largely to:
Click here to view the secret text


I saw that issue in 1S, and really should have expected it--having had the same sort of problem with my own custom tokens. And I do know exactly how to leak fix it against clone bug exploit: Basically just put a hot tile under the other token too. That should also fix the other leak Chaco found in his video. I'm thinking some well-placed hot tiles might also fix the issue in the secret room. Or maybe tunnels would be better.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-08-2020 11:14 PM]
04-08-2020 at 11:12 PM
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mxvladi
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
I would have thought this would have been spotted in swap-o-tron 2N2E, where you have to maneuver a queen/roach around an S to hit a plate, and if you're not careful things can get out of hand. Although in that one you're activating each token only once.


I was thinking of that one just now, you can actually see where the scripting stops working there - the swap-a-tron doesn't drown in case you step on it with too many roaches present. Aka what disoritented mentioned in his H&S post. "Drowning" also happens with scripting in swap-a-tron's case so if it gets shut down, it never gets the chance to get to that part. Thankfully it doesn't break the room too much there since you step on each one only once.

But probably if you fill, like, the whole room with roaches it won't switch them all there as well.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 04-08-2020 11:16 PM]
04-08-2020 at 11:15 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+3)  
Had a quick look at the script, 1216 squares on the board, so if you're looping over all of them, you can only do 10000 / 1216 = 8.22 "set var"s per square. 1 is already used as part of the loop, so you really have a limit of 7 set vars.

The "go swap" subroutine currently has 7 sets on a failure (no swap) and 11 or 12 sets on a success (make a swap)

But! I think the .m and .n variables aren't needed - scriptX and scriptY don't ever change inside "go swap" so we can use them instead.

So in XLoop and YLoop just replace .m and .n with _MyScriptX and _MyScriptY
Then in "do swap" you don't need to set and set MyScriptX and Y at the start and end, which will save 4 sets. That'll bring down the success to 7 or 8, so it should only fail if the room is sufficiently full of the second sort of monster.

If that's likely to be the case, you can always hard code the monsters in "Generate Entity" type, which'll let you remove the setting and unsetting _MyScriptH lines.

I might code it up later when I have time.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-09-2020 02:22 AM]
04-09-2020 at 02:21 AM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
Thanks for looking into the swap-o-tron code. Never knew about the limit for set statements.

I'll fix this after the contest is over. Too busy right now. And when I fix this, I also want to update the swap-o-tron hold itself.

Regarding swapping 'doubles' of any type: I ran into problems (like described in this thread as well) and decided I wouldn't try to fix it. Perhaps I'll make an effort now.

Also: hard-coding entity identity is a definite no. I've deliberately set up the code to make it easy to change the token type. That's not going to change :) I'm not changing elegant code into messy code to facilitate horde rooms :P

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 04-09-2020 10:36 AM]
04-09-2020 at 07:36 AM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
So uh, I watched Chaco's episode 3 on Fade Away. A couple of notes in reply:

-DF called them "multi-use trapdoors" but actually these are skell's just "custom" trapdoors, including several kinds that aren't merely multi-use.
-They don't actually have a proper hold associated with them, just a more-or-less single room demonstration hold in architecture. For this reason I tried to build the level specifically as a wordless tutorial for them, but it's clear I didn't quite showcase a certain detail in the behavior of one type soon enough.
-The originals don't work with doubles; I tweaked them so they do, but the diagonal and orthogonal-only ones are still broken with doubles because of how they work.
--That further means the "originals" didn't work with timeclones. Furthermore...
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-10-2020 04:43 PM]
04-10-2020 at 04:42 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
I have played around a bit with the swap-o-tron code.

1. Fixed the 'overload' when too many monsters are present. Rabscuttle had the wonderful idea of using _MyScriptX/Y in stead of .m/.n That was enough.
This image shows two scenarios:
Click here to view the secret text


Left is the absolute darkest possible scenario. You see, the swap-o-tron can now *almost* handle it. Right a more realistic, but still completely ridiculous horde scenario. Swap-o-tron manages to convert almost all brains back to roaches.
While this is theoretically still not enough, I consider this certainly good enough to never run into problems. Even in large horde rooms, you're bound to have some free space here and there. I don't recall encountering a puzzle room this full of monster.

So: problem solved, thanks Rabscuttle!

2. Regarding the 'double/Beethro' problem:
I decided that it seemed logical to let the swap-o-tron
a) Trigger if one entity is swapped within a turn for another entity type (e.g. Beethro pushes a mimic away, and is in turn pushed onto the token.
b) NOT trigger if the same entity type keeps occupying the token. (e.g. one decoy is pushed off the token, while another is immediately pushed on within the same turn).

That's whay there's only a check to see if there is a change Beethro<->Double within the turn.

Naturally, this will break down with clones. They have the ability to become Beethro/double depending on the player's choices.

So I would suggest changing the logic to

===NEW LOGIC===
Trigger the token when Beethro/double steps onto it.
Don't trigger again for as long as eny Beethro/double remains/comes on top of it. Only after an 'empty turn', the token kan trigger again.
===============

This behaviour is logical and consistent. I'd be happy to implement it that way, because in my original hold, I never used potions or doubles in any way.

EDIT: forget I said this.

But since we're having a discussion here, why not ask for you opinion on this?

Any suggestions?
Anything in Xindaris' entry that would break with my proposed NEW LOGIC (TM)?

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 04-21-2020 02:11 PM]
04-14-2020 at 01:02 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
I have enough experience trying to make custom tokens to know that they never work right with doubles--or at least it's functionally impossible to make them work exactly like "real" tokens. As far as I can recall, my intent with every single room in my entry was for only the "real" beethro to ever step on one of the swap-o-trons. 1S simply has an oversight, which I'll fix with an architectural tweak (post-voting; basically "put a hot tile under the one that doesn't already have a hot tile under it"), so there shouldn't be any problem there either.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 04-14-2020 03:55 PM]
04-14-2020 at 03:53 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
quote:
Dying Flutchman wrote:
===NEW LOGIC===
Trigger the token when Beethro/double steps onto it.
Don't trigger again for as long as eny Beethro/double remains/comes on top of it. Only after an 'empty turn', the token kan trigger again.
===============

This behaviour is logical and consistent. I'd be happy to implement it that way, because in my original hold, I never used potions or doubles in any way.


Pretty sure 1E in your original hold would be impossible to solve with such swap-a-tron logic.

But otherwise yeah I think it's the easiest fix to this behaviour.
04-14-2020 at 04:04 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
quote:
mxvladi wrote:
...
Pretty sure 1E in your original hold would be impossible to solve with such swap-a-tron logic.

But otherwise yeah I think it's the easiest fix to this behaviour.


AAAARGH. Stupid brain. Just stops thing when you least expect it.

Yes, that would definitely break.

In fact, I suppose I just keep it like it is. No new logic nonsense.

But I will add a note to the explanation room for the element that it won't work with clones and that you probably shouldn't mess around will create confusion using more than one double type in any single room.

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[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 04-14-2020 04:14 PM]
04-14-2020 at 04:13 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
Remember that there's an offial contest going on. The voting period will end in less than one week. So if you want to vote, make sure to be in time!

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04-20-2020 at 07:28 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+1)  
Remember, last day of voting!

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04-25-2020 at 05:40 PM
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mxvladi
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (+2)  
Since the voting is now over I'll go ahead and post my thoughts on entries:

Click here to view the secret text

04-26-2020 at 04:06 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
Thanks for participating and voting on this contest.

And congratulations to Rabscuttle for winning this contest with 'Lost Temple of Whatever' :)

I enjoyed all entries and will put up an architecture topic one of these days to get this compilation published.

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04-26-2020 at 07:55 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Revival Show - Voting time (0)  
Thanks! :)

Props to Dischorran for coming up with such a fun element to begin with, and thanks to Dying Flutchman for running the contest.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-28-2020 01:47 AM]
04-28-2020 at 01:36 AM
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