Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
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File: Twice Twice v2.drh (21.2 KB)
Downloaded 75 times.
License: Public Domain

I've decided to try my hand at the RPG half of hold architecture, so here's a two-level hold I sorta tossed together over the span of a couple weeks. I wasn't completely sure how to properly balance this out, so I could maybe use a couple tips to push me the right direction in that regard.

This hold consists of two "loops" of the same level, just with assorted differences between the two loops, so as an example, some doors that are initially open in the first loop will most likely become closed in the second.

Also, regarding the gate to the second loop and the hold's end, rather than a boss monster or blue key/trapdoor hunt, I made a "monster quota" system here, meaning that there is a bare minimum number of monsters that must be directly killed for each loop. Bridge-drops, explosions and hot tile kills aren't counted as direct kills, though in this hold you only see bridge-drop kills, and there's only 4 such cases between the loops anyway.

Anyway, I did do a bit of a challenge run as my personal play-test: clear the hold without using any equipment beyond the starting Shortsword, and once a loop is cleared, immediately exit the level. These are my stats at the end of each loop:
I guess you could use this as a base-line for how you should end the first loop if you're trying to replicate my challenge run? I'm not exactly the best when it comes to optimizations, so it definitely isn't the best.

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Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

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[Last edited by Professor Tio at 03-08-2019 03:01 PM]

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 811
Registered: 05-03-2015
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I've been in the mood for some RPG lately, so I'll try to check this out on the weekend.

I did have a question though about your challenge: Do you mean that once you've gone to the second level you don't go back to the first? I'm not quite sure what criteria you would use to judge the challenge.

Then again, that only matters if you actually script an alternate score checkpoint into your hold. If it's purely a personal unscripted challenge then it doesn't really matter.

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106th Skywatcher

Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
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Well no, it's a one-way deal with the loop transition. I said that I immediately left the first loop once I had met the quota for that loop. I still had a few things I could've done but with my challenge, I didn't do said things.

____________________________
Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2384
Registered: 06-14-2005
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The one problem with challenges like those is that they leave the level open to be exploited. I didn't optimize a huge amount (I would have went for the shield earlier), but my stats ending the hold were:

Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
IP: Logged

Thanks for the feedback! I think I know how I could check for that challenge, since all 3 equipment pieces in the hold (Longsword, Wooden Shield and Bronze Shield) already have a character on them that makes an autosave when the player picks them up. I could probably simply set up a variable that changes with any of these 3 being triggered, then have the loop ends' characters check that variable and give you a different score-point based on if that variable changed or not.

Edit - Setting up the "make sure you don't do anything else on the loop when you hit the quota" part of it won't be as easy but that makes me wonder, can two global scripts be active at once?

____________________________
Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

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[Last edited by Professor Tio at 03-07-2019 01:41 PM]

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2384
Registered: 06-14-2005
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Oh, maybe I wasn't clear - I didn't do the challenge. It's not a bad hold as is, though I wouldn't put a third level on it (I would steamroll it with my current stats, or it would be impossible without a similar level of optimization). A different scorepoint is a good idea, but you should make sure that there's some in-game indication that such a scorepoint exists.

Actually, upon further reflection and given the dearth of easier RPG holds, I actually really like what you've done.

And yes, you can have multiple globals running.

Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
IP: Logged

Someone Else wrote:
Oh, maybe I wasn't clear - I didn't do the challenge. It's not a bad hold as is, though I wouldn't put a third level on it (I would steamroll it with my current stats, or it would be impossible without a similar level of optimization). A different scorepoint is a good idea, but you should make sure that there's some in-game indication that such a scorepoint exists.

Actually, upon further reflection and given the dearth of easier RPG holds, I actually really like what you've done.

And yes, you can have multiple globals running.

- Right, I was able to tell that you hadn't done the challenge; if you check the hold's F3 page in the editor, you'll find that such ATK and DEF stats are completely impossible to attain without grabbing any equipment (theoretically, if you grab every shield gem, you'll be 8 short of your end stats on DEF, and 28 ATK short for grabbing power gems). And thanks for that suggestion with the score-point indicator, I'll add that in. Also, I wasn't planning to add a third level to the hold, I figured 2 levels like this was good enough. I am gonna be doing some adjustments regarding how the 2nd level is balanced, though, so that'll be a thing.

- Thanks! Fun little side note, I actually had originally intended to sorta splice this into another RPG hold I'm working on bit by bit that's a quartet of "sub-holds" that are mostly independent of each other.

- Alright, got it. That'll help to set up the challenge checking a lot.

____________________________
Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 98
Registered: 12-16-2008
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I mostly only play RPG, and this is the first new hold in a while, so it was a good excuse to reinstall the game on my newish computer.

In general, I think I agree with the need for some clarity on ways to make the second level a range of challenges, depending on how well you've optimized the first level. The first level is a nice challenge at various places, but having gotten through that, the second level was pretty easy to walk through. That's not to suggest making it harder, but proposing a challenge or two and laying it out in-game would allow people to plan to their level of skill.

I also think a scroll on how the blind roaches work would be helpful. It took a while to figure out/remember the combination of rules that drive them.

Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
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Alright. I made some re-balancing moves on the second level and set up the stuff needed for the challenge run to be official, as well as added a "monstrous codex" scroll for each loop. Might be a bit of a mess but I'm pretty sure it's fool-proof? Check the top post for the new hold file.

____________________________
Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 811
Registered: 05-03-2015
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I played through this. I found the second loop to be basically trivial by the time I got to it. I wasn't trying the challenge. I never felt at any point that I was going to get stuck, so I agree with the sentiment that this is a really easy hold. Didn't really think too hard about optimizing anything, although I did make a casual attempt at hitting attack checkpoints and collecting defense before beating monsters.

Final scores:



I can't say that I'm a huge fan of moving enemies in RPG, but they weren't too bad here.

I liked some of the puzzles. Clearing the mud off of the pressure plate was probably my favourite. There are a lot of free resources lying around if you go through some of the puzzles though, which is one reason it's an easy hold.

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106th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 03-10-2019 12:23 PM]

Professor Tio
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 100
Registered: 01-30-2019
IP: Logged

mauvebutterfly wrote:
I played through this. I found the second loop to be basically trivial by the time I got to it. I wasn't trying the challenge. I never felt at any point that I was going to get stuck, so I agree with the sentiment that this is a really easy hold. Didn't really think too hard about optimizing anything, although I did make a casual attempt at hitting attack checkpoints and collecting defense before beating monsters.

Final scores:

Click here to view the secret text

×
First Loop Cleared!

HP: 2199
ATK: 105
DEF: 43
Keys: 6/6/0
Score: 888

Second Loop Cleared!

HP: 13996
ATK: 210
DEF: 141
Keys: 1/12/0
Score: 2072

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of moving enemies in RPG, but they weren't too bad here.

I liked some of the puzzles. Clearing the mud off of the pressure plate was probably my favourite. There are a lot of free resources lying around if you go through some of the puzzles though, which is one reason it's an easy hold.

Got it. Should I cut the puzzle rewards down a bit, and maybe replace the Longsword with something like the Hook or Goblin Biter? I've noted that the Longsword especially contributes to the easiness.

Edit - Okay so for whatever reason, I always thought that the Hook was weaker than it actually is, so nevermind that thought. Goblin Biter it is then?

____________________________
Hold stuff I guess!
I had an avatar at some point but then the thing stopped cooperating, ah well-

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[Last edited by Professor Tio at 03-10-2019 11:45 PM]