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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : Twisty Little Passages (Crowdfunding project for a puzzle dungeon crawl adventure game book)
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Twisty Little Passages (+1)  
Re solve VS optimize, I would guess the former, though it could make an unintended solution a real achievement.

-Erik

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05-01-2019 at 06:50 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
Someone Else wrote:
I'm just lurking!

...oops. -_-
Hey, fair enough! I can respect that :)

If everyone's satisfied with what's happening and we're all just waiting for the real deal, that's perfectly fine.

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I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-02-2019 at 12:44 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
davidatk100 wrote:
quote:
mrimer wrote:
Haven't heard too much here in this topic by way of feedback, but I'm excited to share TLP with you nonetheless and hoping most are simply lurking while waiting for the campaign to launch.


Good guess! It sounds like it's going to be a fun book that I will enjoy and will make a great gift for some friends.
I appreciate your interest!
quote:
Now that I'm posting and no longer lurking I might as well ask some questions: Is there going to be any issues buying/shipping internationally? When do you expect the book to ship?
Great questions. Happy to answer them. We're going to be providing international shipping options. As is par for the course, international shipping will cost more than shipping inside the US, and I'm working on optimizing that cost as much as possible.

In some cases, there's not a lot of wiggle room depending on volume. I'm doing a good amount of research into logistics and fulfillment companies to determine what options would be best for TLP. Depending on the volume going to certain countries, one decent option might be to send material in bulk to a local (e.g., Amazon) fulfillment center and having all copies sent out from there, ostensibly VAT- and customs-free from that source.
quote:
I originally thought is would be like a paper version of DROD RPG but from I've read it sounds different. Is your intent that each page is a standalone puzzle with one intended solution? Does this mean that the idea is to solve rather than optimise?
Yes, TLP is similar in spirit to DROD RPG but will be a bit different from "DROD RPG on paper" and should provide a new, engaging experience. Erik is right. Specifically, each puzzle is standalone and is designed (in nearly all cases) to have one intended solution. The puzzles have a streamlined design that focuses on core aspects of solving focused challenges and helping the player catch those "a-ha!" moments where things click into place in a satisfying way.

We considered designing puzzles both ways, and early on we realized puzzles of this scale can become much more interesting to solve when they are not "watered down", as it were, with multiple options letting the player do whatever.

If you do find an unintended solution, you can congratulate yourself on being especially clever! :yes

The puzzles in this form should all be fun to play. I've gone through all the puzzles myself a long time back and it was quite engaging. Testers have given feedback the puzzle design is very good. No cheap tricks of any sort -- just pure, thematic puzzle solving goodness. They will be even better when given the full artistic treatment.
quote:
Also, how many pages/puzzles does/will it have?
The base content will have 25 puzzles. These will feature a map either on a single page or across a two-page spread. All the puzzle content is complete, but producing the finished full-graphic puzzle versions and illustration for the entire book is contingent on funding the campaign.

As you'll see when reviewers share play throughs of the demo content that comprises the first story chapter, the introductory puzzles that act as a tutorial will take around 3-10 minutes each to solve. After that point, in general, being engaged in solving a puzzle for about 30-60 minutes will be the norm. We tried to design puzzles so you can play through an area in a single sitting, though there are some special challenges near the end that might take you longer.

The book will probably end up around a hundred pages, and that could go plus or minus depending on how our cartographer brings the remainder of the puzzle material to life and what stretch goals are hit.

If the campaign hits certain stretch goals, I plan to expand the base content with bonus puzzle material for all backers.
quote:
Less than 2 weeks to go :thumbsup
Yess!!!!

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-02-2019 at 01:18 AM
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mrimer
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Here's a new article on the TLP blog on the use of mazes in games (both intentional, and perhaps unintentional):

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/88691/mazes-are-interesting-and-there-may-be-more-kinds

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-03-2019 at 02:51 AM
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mrimer
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I hosted a get-together showing off TLP today to ~15 coworkers who play board and card games and were interested to come see a locally-produced game that's going up on Kickstarter.

We talked about game design and played through a couple early puzzles together.

Got a lot of really positive feedback. Everyone loved the prototype book's production values and they thought the game mechanic and puzzles were fascinating. Multiple attendees said they could also see themselves getting copies for friends and playing at home together with their kids.

Awesome!

---

A couple people wondered whether we'd include dry-erase markers together with the book. I was originally planning to do so by default, but now I'm on the fence on this. After doing a good amount of research on shipping and fulfillment options, I've learned that doing so would bump up the cost for each copy by at least $3-5 (e.g., the roughly half-price "media mail" option would not be available in the US, for instance, and international prices can skyrocket). I'd expect most backers would want to keep the price down, but what do I know. To me, it would be cheaper just to pick up whatever kind of markers I want at a local store. A brand that works very well in the book is Promarx (or here, to share some random links online). There are many "dollar" stores around the US that sell packs of dry erase markers like these for just $1.

I'd like to keep prices as low as possible for backers.

One possibility for the KS campaign would be to make markers an optional add-on (see https://www.crowdcrux.com/kickstarter-add-ons/ ). This seems like it could be more costly and also more complicated for backers to manage their pledges for, but if some players want it, then maybe I shouldn't stand in their way?

Any thoughts on this?

---

Also, I either received or thought of a dozen or more new ideas for puzzle mechanics that could be a lot of fun to try out. If we get into campaign stretch goals, I'd like to create some additional bonus puzzles with novel mechanics.

Some requests for further material to share in the campaign were:

* Articles sharing the process and principles we use to design puzzles.

* Contests to design good homemade puzzles around a specific game mechanic.

* Even more books of puzzles after this first book is published.

That's a lot of glowing praise! Only 10-11 days till launch!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-04-2019 05:53 AM]
05-04-2019 at 02:31 AM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
mrimer wrote:
One possibility for the KS campaign would be to make markers an optional add-on (see https://www.crowdcrux.com/kickstarter-add-ons/ ). This seems like it could be more costly and also more complicated for backers to manage their pledges for, but if some players want it, then maybe I shouldn't stand in their way?

Any thoughts on this?

I would guess that the marker is not a big deal to be left out of the Kickstarter. I'd explain your rationale of keeping the price of the book down in the campaign text.

You might include an Amazon link to a marker to make it very easy to pick up, and also dispel any confusion about which markers will work. I know it's just "dry erase", but imagine how sad it would be to have people emailing you replacement requests for their permanent-marked-up books.

-Erik

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05-04-2019 at 05:23 PM
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mrimer
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That's right. Great suggestions! I'll do that.

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-04-2019 at 07:14 PM
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KituU
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About including dry-erase markers:
imo, a gift without the markers is not a good option, the gift is not complete, and trying out is postponed, so it risks being put aside, (especially if this person is new to any drod experience)
So, to make markers an optional add-on if possible would be great

05-04-2019 at 07:35 PM
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mrimer
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quote:
KituU wrote:
About including dry-erase markers:
imo, a gift without the markers is not a good option, the gift is not complete, and trying out is postponed, so it risks being put aside, (especially if this person is new to any drod experience)
So, to make markers an optional add-on if possible would be great

That's a great point. You're not the first to bring up this point, and I can see that it's definitely on people's minds. None of the individuals who made this suggestion to me thus far were actually planning to give the book as a gift; they were simply being conscientious of another's hypothetical need.

I agree it is an option we can support as an add-on that's resolved post-campaign by our pledge manager (BackerKit). I can see the allure to wanting to order both as part of a campaign and not have to think about picking up pens separately.

If you'd like to get your own pens, I'd recommend either ProMarx or Expo markers, which provide the best overall quality while also remaining easily wipeable even long after marking a page.

See, for instance, any of these good options:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=promarx+dry+erase+markers

I've noticed some people like using different colors for tracking different things.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-04-2019 10:38 PM]
05-04-2019 at 10:34 PM
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Making it an optional add-on seems like a good idea; if someone can't handle the choice of a couple options when it comes time to finalize their kickstart payment, they're probably doomed when it comes to solving the book itself. Is it possible and worthwhile to order a small run of branded markers?

How difficult would it be to add a printed insert to the book (or package) detailing marker options? Might be easier to update that way as you collect info from testers.

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05-05-2019 at 01:55 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
Dischorran wrote:
Making it an optional add-on seems like a good idea; if someone can't handle the choice of a couple options when it comes time to finalize their kickstart payment, they're probably doomed when it comes to solving the book itself.
You're totally right. Some people were thinking of how grandma might want to order a gift for her grandkids, but they also acknowledged those individuals probably wouldn't be looking for something on Kickstarter. It's something to consider for retail when we get to that point.
quote:
Is it possible and worthwhile to order a small run of branded markers?
Hey, that's a neat idea! I'll look into it.
quote:
How difficult would it be to add a printed insert to the book (or package) detailing marker options? Might be easier to update that way as you collect info from testers.
There's a FAQ attached to each KS campaign. It would probably be easiest to keep the TLP FAQ and the CG website updated with this information before and after the campaign.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-06-2019 02:29 PM]
05-06-2019 at 02:28 PM
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mrimer
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Here's an article I posted to the TLP blog on Board Game Geek on balancing the puzzle difficulty ramp for all players:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/88692/balancing-puzzle-difficulty

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-06-2019 at 02:30 PM
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LeoS
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I didn't notice if you already did this but you might want to try a poll on BGG asking how the boardgamer collective feels about marker in/exclusion. Not including one certainly wouldn't stop me from ordering it, but I'm also quite comfortable in the print-and-play realm (it's very easy to make roll-and-write games) and also laminate my scoresheets to re-use rather than use up a score pad, so I have dry-erase aplenty. Nonetheless, my initial gut reaction was that it felt like an incomplete game w/o a marker, hence my poll suggestion.

The closest comparable I can think of is Tramways Engineers Workbook which does include two different colored markers. No idea how it comes packaged, though.

You had to pick a year I *swore* to reduce my kickstarter activity, huh? Better just order two copies then :lol
(thanks also to Messrs. Breese and Lacerda btw)
05-07-2019 at 12:02 AM
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mrimer
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I appreciate the suggestions on getting feedback from the BGG community, and thanks for your interest in TLP!

I'm familiar with TEW and I was actually put in touch with the developer. He and I sent a few emails back and forth on production details. They mentioned they actually had some snafus with their production, pens and shipping, and they strongly recommended I don't try to handle things the way they did. For future products, they mentioned they will either be going with a different manufacturer or trying some different configurations in the manufacturing. They weren't specific, but the point I got was the pens they included caused an issue and that it was a clear red flag for a setup just like this.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-07-2019 at 03:04 PM
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mrimer
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Here's a poll on BGG where you can vote on whether you want to TLP packaged with dry-erase markers or not.

Your vote is appreciated so I can work to get you what you want! :)

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/89493/vote-or-against-including-dry-erase-markers-part-b

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-07-2019 at 06:45 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
mrimer wrote:
Here's a poll on BGG where you can vote on whether you want to TLP packaged with dry-erase markers or not.

Your vote is appreciated so I can work to get you what you want! :)

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/89493/vote-or-against-including-dry-erase-markers-part-b

The BGG requires you to log in/create an account. Maybe do a DROD Poll too if you want more data?

I like how you specified to think about you (the voter's) preference only. Seems key to getting valuable votes.

-Erik

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05-07-2019 at 08:46 PM
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mrimer
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Thanks for the feedback. That's a good point!

Here's the poll on the Caravel Forum:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=%2743921%27


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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-07-2019 at 10:45 PM
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mrimer
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Here's the shiny new game entry for TLP on Board Game Geek!

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/278373/twisty-little-passages


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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-09-2019 at 01:47 AM
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Link just sends me to their main page.

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05-09-2019 at 03:43 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
mauvebutterfly wrote:
Link just sends me to their main page.
Huh. Didn't expect that. It probably has a beta flag or something on it that we can remove when TLP is published. I'll look into it.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-09-2019 at 08:50 PM
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mrimer
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Less than 24 hours till the Twisty Little Passages campaign goes live! It will launch tomorrow, May 14, between 6-7 AM MDT.

I'm so excited to be at this point, and I hope you are too!

I've been actively working on getting price down as much as possible without sacrificing quality and also negotiating with fulfillment companies to ship the finished product for as low a rate as possible. This is especially important for international orders.

The final shipping price will ultimately depend on the weight of the final version of TLP, which in part is based on what gets included. I have a series of free flash and stretch goals planned, which if hit during the campaign will add a good amount of free bonus content to the book. Regardless, I have a pretty solid expectation of what these rates will be for different countries.

All the details are written up on the TLP campaign page, which you'll be able to read through when it launches.

Happy to answer any questions in the mean time too!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-13-2019 05:13 PM]
05-13-2019 at 05:12 PM
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mrimer
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For the past few months, I've been coordinating with game promoters and reviewers to have coverage lined up for publication at the time of the TLP launch.

I've started getting those videos in and would like to share some pre-launch previews here on the Caravel Forum, exclusive for loyal fans. Here's one that's produced by Man vs Meeple, which provides a condensed overview of how the game is played.



Edit: I've been thinking a lot about the value proposition and what players will get out of the game. This video seeks to be unbiased and simply share an overview of the game. Every reviewer I've reached out to has said they've really enjoyed the puzzles and are looking forward to getting the finished book. You'll see some of this in other videos as they get posted tomorrow and over the next week or so. I've been quite encouraged by the glowing feedback!

I'd like to mention something about the amount of content in the book. One thing that early reviewers like this one seem to have a tendency to communicate is that puzzles take 5-10 minutes to play. (Maybe that duration is a selling point for puzzle fans, I dunno.) This timing is true of tutorial/introductory puzzles in the first chapter of the book, but for the rest of the puzzles, they tend to play for about 30-60 minutes each. I don't want to give the wrong impression that these puzzles are all light, simple and easy. There's a steady difficulty ramp and, just like with pretty much every other Caravel title, by the time you reach the end, I expect you'll agree that there is a *lot* of satisfying and challenging content in here, and you won't be disappointed with the volume of material.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-13-2019 05:57 PM]
05-13-2019 at 05:27 PM
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mrimer
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If you haven't seen the news, Twisty Little Passages is now live on Kickstarter!

You can back the project here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/caravelgames/twisty-little-passages



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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-14-2019 at 04:16 PM
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Hi, I entered as guest, and only credit card option is offered.
I have read online that it was possible to pay kickstarter through Amazon, but didn't find that option.
I need to go through autorization process from my country, and prefer no to give my credit card, is there another option, like PayPal or Amazon ?

05-15-2019 at 12:25 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
KituU wrote:
Hi, I entered as guest, and only credit card option is offered.
I have read online that it was possible to pay kickstarter through Amazon, but didn't find that option.
I need to go through autorization process from my country, and prefer no to give my credit card, is there another option, like PayPal or Amazon ?

Great question! I can work to provide a PayPal option that you can use on successful completion of the campaign. Would you contact me at that point and I'll set you up with that option?

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-15-2019 at 01:29 AM
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KituU
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quote:
mrimer wrote:
Would you contact me at that point and I'll set you up with that option?


yes , please, how do i do that?
05-15-2019 at 01:38 AM
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mrimer
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quote:
KituU wrote:
quote:
mrimer wrote:
Would you contact me at that point and I'll set you up with that option?


yes , please, how do i do that?
Ah, I mean, just send me a PM after the campaign and I'll send you the info you need.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-15-2019 at 07:02 AM
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mrimer
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Hmm...the TLP FB page wasn't displaying for a lot of people and I realized I had an incorrect display setting configured.

Fixed this and you should now be able to view the page if it wasn't visible to you before:

https://www.facebook.com/tlpgame

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-15-2019 at 03:09 PM
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mrimer
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Wow! The project is 60% funded!

I'm quite grateful for your interest, attention and support.

The next goal in view is to hit the second flash funding goal of reaching 100% in the next 14 hours.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-15-2019 11:16 PM]
05-15-2019 at 11:15 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
mrimer wrote:
Wow! The project is 60% funded!

I'm quite grateful for your interest, attention and support.

The next goal in view is to hit the second flash funding goal of reaching 100% in the next 14 hours.

I keep checking back to see the latest status. Nice to see it making constant progress! I noticed you are #23 on the tabletop category which isn't quite above the fold, but definitely discoverable by folks browsing the category. And scrolling further down, that list of games below TLP looked bottomless.

-Erik

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05-15-2019 at 11:26 PM
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