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butsam
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icon Isn't it ironic, don't you think? (0)  
Someone works for 8 hours every day and complains they don't get paid enough...but when the President promises to give them $400 of their already-earned money back to do with as they please, some people are MAD at him for doing so! I will never understand...

And the argument that the money should be spent somewhere else is ludicrous--if you really believe it should be spent somewhere else, then send the check there yourself, I'm sure they don't mind! And then it doesn't have to go through all those bureaucratic channels, so it ends up going to that place dollar for dollar, instead of 3 cents per dollar. And yes, 3 cents per tax dollar is the average that an organization will see after accounting for the costs of paying the IRS and the middle-ground bureaucrats. In other words, tax raises are to pay government bureaucrats more than they are to give more money to even the most worthy cause.

Now, I'm not for abolishing taxes completely--there are some things that just cannot run on their own that we need to have. But why demean someone for giving you some money you already earned? I'm not saying whether you support what he's done in other things is un-American or what not...and you can even oppose the tax cut (send the IRS the money back, they won't care one bit). But just remember, YOU had the right to CHOOSE where your money went, courtesy of the current President, instead of being forced to put a lot of your hard-earned money toward some bureaucratic channel at extremely low efficiency. Do you really believe in the right to choose? Whatever you think of Bush as a person, and all the other things he's done, I can't believe how many people are demeaning him for giving people the choice for what to do with their money!

Sam


[Edited by butsam on 06-05-2003 at 04:39 AM]
06-05-2003 at 04:30 AM
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ross
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icon Re: Isn't it ironic, don't you think? (0)  
From what I can tell US citizens play so little tax it's unbelievable. You want to try and live here or Germany for a bit :)

I have to pay Income Tax ($6000), National Insurance (secret tax $1500), Council Tax ($1500), Road Tax ($300) and Tax on savings (varies). On top of all of this I have to have a licence to watch television for heavens sake. Germany from what I remember has a ridiculously high rate of income tax (40% I think).

This from the country that once introduced a Window Tax where you paid tax according to the number of windows in your house. You can still see some houses where they bricked up the windows.

So if you don't want your $400 dollars, adopt a brit today :)
06-05-2003 at 07:31 AM
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Malarame
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I have many, many problems with his "tax cut".

First of all, it's basically utilizing the trickle down theory, which hasn't ever worked in all of history. It's been tried more than once, and every single time it's failed. Did his "tax cut" a couple years ago lead to economic recovery and everyone having a job? No. What makes you think it'll work this time?

Secondly, the beaurocrats in Washington have actively worked to make sure the richest get a disproportionate amount of the "tax cut". Why would they do this? Because most of them are rich, and all of them are, for all intents and purposes, controlled by the super-rich. Do you think the American people are being fairly represented when the vast majority of congressmen and senators are worth well over a million dollars? And if you think they aren't trying to take the money away from the lower-income families, just look at the last minute change Republican senators introduced. It took away a vast amount of money from the lowest bracket of income, the families who live paycheck to paycheck. Their argument was that they wouldn't put the money back into the economy. Now, no matter what your politcal beliefs may be, you can't honestly believe that the poorest people, upon getting an extra few hundred dollars, will not spend it. To say that is just rediculous.

You may have noticed that I'm putting the words "tax cut" in quotations. That's because this isn't really a tax cut at all. All it is is a tax redistribution. Since the federal government is putting the country into more debt, states are getting less money. This means that the states themselves will have to raise taxes to keep from slashing programs all over the board. In my state, New York, Governor Pataki put forth a budget which raised taxes by an obscene amount and still required a massive cut of state programs and money to things like schools. The state legislature, however, overturned his budget and put forth their own, which raises taxes even higher and still cuts many programs, though not as many. I'm not saying that this is solely caused by the "tax cuts", but they are only adding to the problem. As the country is pushed further and further into debt, the last thing we need is a fiscally irresponsible administration propelling us into more debt.

I can go on and on about the problems with the "tax cut" you seem to like so much, but I'm not in the mood to spend the next hour typing. Suffice it to say, I feel the government should be more responsible in this time of economic hardship. The ramifications of their policies are impossible to predict fully, but it isn't hard to see the dollar suffering internationally as a result of this whole thing.

I'd rather not get into a whole long discussion about the various problems I have with Bush and his administration. If anyone really wants to hear what I have to say on the matter, I'll be more than happy to talk, but for right now I'll just leave this where it is.

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06-06-2003 at 01:38 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Isn't it ironic, don't you think? (0)  
I guess Malarame's gonna be one of those giving his refund back :D
06-10-2003 at 09:05 PM
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Malarame
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mrimer wrote:
I guess Malarame's gonna be one of those giving his refund back :D
My job is off the books, so I don't pay taxes. And even if I did, I'd be making so little that I wouldn't be paying taxes anyway. But it doesn't matter since I live at home (at least for two more months) and I have no bills.

God I love being a teenager.

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06-11-2003 at 12:56 AM
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mrimer
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Malarame wrote:
My job is off the books, so I don't pay taxes.
So that's why you don't like some people getting money back. Sour grapes?
06-11-2003 at 04:43 AM
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butsam
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OK, it's been awhile since I posted here, I'm sorry. But the facts are that the recession started at the end of the Clinton administration, and economists have now come out and said we have recovered. So there is proof that giving money back to the People works. I know how to use my money better than the government does. Anything you get back from the government is mediocre at best (I mean, like if you support taxes going to, for instance, Medicare, then they end up getting about 30 cents per tax dollar--the other 70 cents is bureaucratic management expenses).

The excuse that Germany is socialist is not a reason to excuse the US becoming socialist, I'm sorry. And I'm sorry, a 40% tax rate is socialist. I'm not saying Germany is a bad place to live, just that I don't agree with the high taxes--they don't need to be that outrageously high. If you think they do need to be that high, take pride in the fact you are a socialist, just like I take pride in the fact that I am a capitalist, and you can call me a capitalist any day of the week you would like (as long as it ends in 'y').

Government should, with VERY few exceptions, only handle those things which are necessary, and are not provided just as well by businesses and/or charities. Why? The government has no competition, and is not efficient!

Sam

PS: If anyone wants to send me their $400 check I'm game...I'm poor...college does that to ya :) Luckily, less than a year until graduation!!!!

[Edited by butsam on 07-19-2003 at 09:48 PM]
07-19-2003 at 06:18 PM
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mrimer
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Imagine what government-built DROD would look like: it would only have roaches and roach queens and they would only use one graphic for each so you couldn't tell which way the roaches were facing.

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07-19-2003 at 08:12 PM
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ErikH2000
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mrimer wrote:
Imagine what government-built DROD would look like: it would only have roaches and roach queens and they would only use one graphic for each so you couldn't tell which way the roaches were facing.
Truthfully, DROD development in 2002 was largely financed by a generous grant from the State of Washington. (unemployment checks ;)) No wonder I took so long to get the 1.5 release out--I was mired in government beureaucracy! Filling out my job search forms every week, telephone calls to the ESD, weekly trips to the bank to deposit the checks--it was a horrible waste of time.

-Erik

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07-19-2003 at 10:15 PM
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Malarame
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butsam wrote:
But the facts are that the recession started at the end of the Clinton administration, and economists have now come out and said we have recovered. So there is proof that giving money back to the People works.
Blaming Clinton? Ugh...I'm not going to even bother to respond to that. And what economists have said we've recovered and that his "tax cuts" have worked? I don't know about you, but I don't see the national debt skyrocketing out of control as a good thing. And that's just one indication of a worsening economy. From my viewpoint, it looks like our economy is still in pretty bad shape, and it's only getting worse. The dollar is weakening all over the world...what's going to happen when other nations decide they don't want to use the dollar as a reserve currency anymore? It's going to happen eventually, and Bush's "Let's Screw Over the Country and Future Generations" economic plan will only bring it about sooner.

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07-20-2003 at 02:45 AM
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butsam
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I'm citing fact. Economists, not I, say the recession is over. Economists, not I, say that it started during the lame duck months of Clinton. You can call it blame, but it's putting the blame where it lies.

Let me ask you this: what part of the Constitution supports views of constantly-expanding government? Or is that no longer the supreme law of the land? It is to me...

Sam

[Edited by butsam on 07-20-2003 at 02:48 AM]
07-20-2003 at 02:47 AM
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zex20913
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Can you give an article citation on that recession thing being over? Just so we don't have to search mindlessly through slews of old economic cashbabble.

Hmm...there's kind of a catch-22 in the Constitution question. The Bill of Rights (part of the Constitution) says people have the freedom of press, religion, assembly, petition, and speech. What if the people under the Constitution, or should I say, placed under the Constitution, wanted to use those five things to ignore/disobey the Constitution?

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07-20-2003 at 03:22 AM
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Malarame
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butsam wrote:
I'm citing fact. Economists, not I, say the recession is over. Economists, not I, say that it started during the lame duck months of Clinton. You can call it blame, but it's putting the blame where it lies.
As I said, what economists? Can you give me some names? Maybe the groups they're affiliated with?

And as for assigning blame, isn't blame usually put on the person in charge? My father used to be in the navy, and he tells me that if anyone on the ship messed up, it was the officer in charge of that person's fault. Look what happened when that submarine ran into the Japanese fishing boat a few years ago. Even though the captain wasn't directly responsible, he had to resign. What I'm trying to say is that the person in charge is always responsible. There used to be a sign on the president's desk that said "The Buck Stops Here". Maybe if Bush were to stop blaming everyone else for everything that's going wrong, he'd have a chance to notice just how bad things really are, and maybe even think about how to improve the country.

[Edited by Malarame on 07-20-2003 at 03:59 AM]

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07-20-2003 at 03:58 AM
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eytanz
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zex20913 wrote:

Hmm...there's kind of a catch-22 in the Constitution question. The Bill of Rights (part of the Constitution) says people have the freedom of press, religion, assembly, petition, and speech. What if the people under the Constitution, or should I say, placed under the Constitution, wanted to use those five things to ignore/disobey the Constitution?

They can't. I'm not an American, but I've read the American constitution, and I'm familiar enough with American law to know that, despite occasional popular interpretations, the American constitution doesn't actually say that these freedoms are unlimited. The text of the first amendment is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

In other words, all it does is limit the power of congress to make laws regarding these activities. It does not say that you can actually do whatever you want in the name of these freedoms; that's a big difference.

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07-20-2003 at 09:46 AM
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zex20913
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oof. No wonder people think Americans are dumb. They don't even know/teach their own laws. I *would* read up on law, but most of it is far too technical for me. I probably should read the Constitution though.

<===silly American.

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07-20-2003 at 01:22 PM
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jamster
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butsam wrote:

[...]

The excuse that Germany is socialist is not a reason to excuse the US becoming socialist, I'm sorry. And I'm sorry, a 40% tax rate is socialist. I'm not saying Germany is a bad place to live, just that I don't agree with the high taxes--they don't need to be that outrageously high. If you think they do need to be that high, take pride in the fact you are a socialist, just like I take pride in the fact that I am a capitalist, and you can call me a capitalist any day of the week you would like (as long as it ends in 'y').

Government should, with VERY few exceptions, only handle those things which are necessary, and are not provided just as well by businesses and/or charities. Why? The government has no competition, and is not efficient!

Sam

[...]

[Edited by butsam on 07-19-2003 at 09:48 PM]

Hello Sam,

indeed, Germany is (still) not a bad place to live. I thought this when I heard of the total breakdown of the power supply in N.Y. and other cities - an obvious consequence of the complete deregulation of public infrastructure and a murderous competition which only proves to be efficient for the privat companies, but not for the public.

So, dream your dream of pure und untamed capitalism while I'm watching the latest breaking news ...

Jürgen
08-15-2003 at 12:39 PM
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mrimer
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Heh, we ourselves sometimes have to laugh each time we are reminded how the government often contracts out its services to the lowest bidder.

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08-15-2003 at 09:14 PM
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