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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Solid Ice (Ice-slide puzzles in DROD)
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Camwoodstock
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This idea came about while I worked on my own hold. Despite all the puzzles we can adapt into DROD easily, or at least via scripting, we don't actually have an official method to adapt ice-sliding puzzles in DROD.

The best you can do is use a bunch of tunnels and pretend it's an ice puzzle, and even then it becomes kinda finnicky. And I won't even bother going over the misery that is trying to script it!

Basically, Solid Ice would work exactly as you expect; ice sliding puzzles, but in DROD. Think kinda like the ice in Chip's Challenge.

A few interactions I have in mind:
* Floor, walls, force arrows opposite to the direction you're sliding, ortho tiles (when sliding diagonally), remains of Golems/Constructs, Tarstuff, and just about anything to prevent your movement, will all bring your sliding to a stop.
* Enemies and NPCs also have to obey the ice-sliding, unless they're flying. Enemies such as wraithwings or fegundoes will not slide along the ice. Wubbas and puffs also will not obey the ice sliding.
* Giant wryms like rattlesnakes, serpents, and adders refuse to move on the ice, like they do with force arrows. Gentryii also don't move on it.
* Briar cannot grow on solid ice due to having no "soil" or any place to properly survive on; they would instead freeze and die.
* Explosions will cause solid ice to melt; it becomes shallow water.
* Fire will cause solid ice to melt as well; it also becomes shallow water. Fire traps melt the 4 tiles directly orthogonality to it when they activate, but hot tiles will melt all 8 tiles adjacent to it in a square fashion.
* Catching a checkpoint mid-slide will allow you to restart at the checkpoint as if you were not sliding on it. This could allow for unorthodox but interesting puzzles, such as using the checkpoint in order to get an angle otherwise impossible to slide to, and clear the puzzle using it.
* Mirrors and powder kegs will also slide along the ice.

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12-29-2016 at 07:10 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
I like this idea. This is among the wide variety of things that would be fairly easy to do in scripting with a Push At command.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 12-29-2016 08:45 PM]
12-29-2016 at 08:44 PM
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uncopy2002
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
quote:
Catching a checkpoint mid-slide will allow you to restart at the checkpoint as if you were not sliding on it. This could allow for unorthodox but interesting puzzles, such as using the checkpoint in order to get an angle otherwise impossible to slide to, and clear the puzzle using it.


Uhm, in this case it's pretty much "everything will slide past this tile except the player", which surely you can deal with with another type of solid ice?

(Checkpoints only work if the player moves on them and the next turn is free, so such workaround will be needed)
12-29-2016 at 10:09 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
I don't think such a meta-mechanic would be a good idea in the first place.
There are games that make it work, but DROD isn't really that sort of game.
12-29-2016 at 10:53 PM
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Xindaris
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Yeah, generally checkpoints are not intended to be puzzle elements, just UI helpfulness that the architect has some design control over. I totally missed that part of the post, but the basic idea I still like.

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12-29-2016 at 11:04 PM
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The Architest
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
How are turns calculated when sliding? Does one slide count as one turn or multiple turns depending on the length of ice?

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12-30-2016 at 03:36 PM
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uncopy2002
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Depending on how it's coded, it can be either.
12-31-2016 at 01:54 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
As I recall you can still turn checkpoints off, so it's not a terrifically good idea to make them a puzzle element.
01-01-2017 at 09:29 PM
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Camwoodstock
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The Architest wrote:
How are turns calculated when sliding? Does one slide count as one turn or multiple turns depending on the length of ice?


One slide = one turn.

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01-02-2017 at 11:51 PM
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Bent
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
There's a hold that implements this in a way (kind of), “Zen” by hartleyhair. Still, I think slippery ice could make a great and flexible built-in element.

Here's how I think it should work: When a (non-flying) element starts sliding it moves one tile per turn until it either hits an obstacle or lands on a tile that is not covered by slippery ice. Along the way it is able to change its orientation/turn its sword, but not stop or change direction. I think this has way more puzzle potential than always taking one turn to cross the ice. There could be two types of slippery ice, thin and solid, where the thin melts when the player steps off it (like ordinary thin ice), and the solid does not.

As for the interactions Camwoodstock suggested:
quote:
Camwoodstock wrote: *Briar cannot grow on solid ice due to having no "soil" or any place to properly survive on; they would instead freeze and die. [...] *Fire will cause solid ice to melt [...] Fire traps melt the 4 tiles directly orthogonality to it when they activate, but hot tiles will melt all 8 tiles adjacent to it in a square fashion.
All of these are inconsistent with how thin ice works in the game: Briar grows as normal on thin ice, and hot tiles and fire traps adjacent to thin ice don't affect it. Adding these to slippery ice would just complicate the ruleset, and I can't see much puzzle potential there either.
quote:
Camwoodstock wrote: *Explosions will cause solid ice to melt; it becomes shallow water.
In the game there's two types of thin ice, one that melts into shallow water, and one that becomes ordinary water. I can't see any reason why this shouldn't be the case with slippery ice as well.
quote:
Camwoodstock wrote: *Giant wryms like rattlesnakes, serpents, and adders refuse to move on the ice, like they do with force arrows. Gentryii also don't move on it.
If elements slide one tile per turn, I can't see any reasons why these should be excluded. Especially snakes on the ice seems to be an interesting combination, as it would make their movement more predictable. Slippery ice should probably count as a brain-obstacle though. By the way, only serpents won't move onto force arrows, other snakes will.
quote:
Camwoodstock wrote: *Catching a checkpoint mid-slide will allow you to restart at the checkpoint as if you were not sliding on it.
I agree with Dragon Fogel and Banjooie that this wouldn't be a good idea.
01-03-2017 at 12:10 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
Making the sliding happen as slowly as 1 tile/turn seems like a good way to make solid ice an irritating element for the player to traverse, with no real benefit. About 90% of the time the player would be stepping on the ice just to get from one place to another with no reason to need to turn their sword and would be stuck waiting or bumping for several turns just to get over there. I think it's far more interesting for a patch of slippery ice to take just 1 turn to traverse no matter how long it is; it makes the element capable of "carrying" Beethro or other things like mirrors longer distances in 1 turn, which means that puzzles where speed in turns is paramount can be built to require its use, possibly in unusual ways. Also, the ability to multi-stab in a single turn has all kinds of possibilities.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 01-03-2017 05:17 PM]
01-03-2017 at 03:06 PM
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Bent
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
You have a point Xindaris, but I don't agree that sliding one tile per turn would have no real benefit: More elements would be able to interact with each other while on the ice, like bumping into each other, allowing one or both of them to change direction midway. Or when killing rock golems mid-slide, their remains could create new paths through the ice (although it is not clear whether the rock golem would stop sliding when he is stabbed). I can imagine some cool puzzles using these things.

But on further thought I can see some problems with this way of doing things too, in addition to the ones you mentioned: If element A slides along the X axis, and element B along the Y axis, and they bump into each other, whether A bumped into B or B into A would depend on their movement order. You'd also have to give sliding mirrors and powder kegs a place in the processing sequence.

All things considered, I'm not too sure anymore which way I prefer.
01-03-2017 at 06:12 PM
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Someone Else
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I prefer the instant traverse method - in particular, I like that it would allow serpents to travel more than one space in a turn.
01-03-2017 at 08:23 PM
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The Architest
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Someone Else wrote:
I prefer the instant traverse method - in particular, I like that it would allow serpents to travel more than one space in a turn.


That sounds both terrific and terrifying. Jesting aside, I too can't see which one would be better.

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01-06-2017 at 11:03 AM
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uncopy2002
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The Architest wrote:
quote:
Someone Else wrote:
I prefer the instant traverse method - in particular, I like that it would allow serpents to travel more than one space in a turn.


That sounds both terrific and terrifying. Jesting aside, I too can't see which one would be better.

You'd probably end up with problems if the serpent is blocked by other non-stationary obstacles (e.g snake body) when sliding.
01-06-2017 at 01:21 PM
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Someone Else
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Not really - it'll just get another turn immediately, but it can't turn. Keep doing that until it hits something (or, in the case of adders, something it can't eat).
01-06-2017 at 03:18 PM
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uncopy2002
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Yeah, but what if the other snake body entirely blocks this snake, and this snake is a serpent/adder? It'll then keep shrinking because turns keep progressing and it's still on ice.
01-07-2017 at 01:23 AM
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Xindaris
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I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is?

-In the turn the snake moves onto the ice, it goes until it hits the obstacle, dragging its tail along the number of tiles that it moves forward.
-In the next turn the serpent attempts to make whatever move it would naturally make. If it's enclosed completely by walls and its own tail or whatever then it shrinks 1 space like normal; if not, then it moves in a direction and, if its move is again onto ice, it slides in that new direction until it hits another obstacle or stops being on ice.

Am I missing something?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 01-07-2017 02:40 AM]
01-07-2017 at 02:39 AM
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BenjiBenjamin123
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
quote:
Camwoodstock wrote:
This idea came about while I worked on my own hold. Despite all the puzzles we can adapt into DROD easily, or at least via scripting, we don't actually have an official method to adapt ice-sliding puzzles in DROD.

The best you can do is use a bunch of tunnels and pretend it's an ice puzzle, and even then it becomes kinda finnicky. And I won't even bother going over the misery that is trying to script it!

Basically, Solid Ice would work exactly as you expect; ice sliding puzzles, but in DROD. Think kinda like the ice in Chip's Challenge.

A few interactions I have in mind:
* Floor, walls, force arrows opposite to the direction you're sliding, ortho tiles (when sliding diagonally), remains of Golems/Constructs, Tarstuff, and just about anything to prevent your movement, will all bring your sliding to a stop.
* Enemies and NPCs also have to obey the ice-sliding, unless they're flying. Enemies such as wraithwings or fegundoes will not slide along the ice. Wubbas and puffs also will not obey the ice sliding.
* Giant wryms like rattlesnakes, serpents, and adders refuse to move on the ice, like they do with force arrows. Gentryii also don't move on it.
* Briar cannot grow on solid ice due to having no "soil" or any place to properly survive on; they would instead freeze and die.
* Explosions will cause solid ice to melt; it becomes shallow water.
* Fire will cause solid ice to melt as well; it also becomes shallow water. Fire traps melt the 4 tiles directly orthogonality to it when they activate, but hot tiles will melt all 8 tiles adjacent to it in a square fashion.
* Catching a checkpoint mid-slide will allow you to restart at the checkpoint as if you were not sliding on it. This could allow for unorthodox but interesting puzzles, such as using the checkpoint in order to get an angle otherwise impossible to slide to, and clear the puzzle using it.
* Mirrors and powder kegs will also slide along the ice.


I'ts a really good idea :thumbsup
02-08-2017 at 02:49 PM
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Camwoodstock
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icon Re: Solid Ice (0)  
quote:
Someone Else wrote:
I prefer the instant traverse method - in particular, I like that it would allow serpents to travel more than one space in a turn.


I could personally see the giant wryms (serpents, rattlesnakes, adders) and Rock Giants being unable to slide along the ice due to being too bulky, if they were forced onto Solid Ice in case of an event such as being forced onto them.

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[PFQ | more to come ]

[Last edited by Camwoodstock at 03-06-2017 02:49 AM]
03-06-2017 at 02:48 AM
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