DimWiddy
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File: Onsuary in Oyst.hold (98.6 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

This is the first hold I have ever worked on, and 1N2E in "Highland Garden" is actually a remake of the first puzzle I ever designed. A few of these rooms may be unsolvable, overly simple, or have trivial solutions due to this hold only having been tested by myself and my friend pb95. And due to me being a noob to DROD. I'm feeling a bit creatively stuck on it at the moment, so do you guys have any suggestions or critique? Should I just scrap the whole thing and start over saving only a few worthy rooms? Thanks!

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[Last edited by DimWiddy at 06-23-2015 12:54 AM]

Xindaris
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First impression: I like it so far.

I wish you would put at least one save point in every room. Highland gardens 1W, for example, is annoying to accidentally kill a mimic in and move again (making undo impossible) and have to start all over again. 2E is even worse on that front, given the risk of getting trapped between water skippers.

I haven't figured out 1N2E yet; it seems impossible since at least one eye sees me if I try to move a mirror up to where two of them are reflected on it. Overall it would be a lot less annoying to try and figure out with either a vision token or just some graphical floor hints on where the eyes can and can't see so I don't have to click them over and over again.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-18-2015 04:05 AM]

DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Ah, you're right, checkpoints are the one thing I never remember to put in. I'm too busy thinking about all the pretty obstacles I can place. Okay, the attachment is updated with checkpoints and vision tokens.

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[Last edited by DimWiddy at 06-18-2015 04:51 AM]

Insoluble
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Looks really good so far. I've only played through Highland Gardens, but here are my thoughts so far. (my solutions to lynchpin type rooms secreted.)

It seems like the very beginning of the level Intro text was cut off? I like the layout and aesthetics in general so far. It's a little bit hard to see occasionally in some of the busier rooms with both the darkness and rain, but not a big deal. The difficulty level was nice and consistent. I liked the puzzles.

1W: The two western doors (11,1) and (11,4) don't actually block anything, was this intentional?

2E: Fairly straightforward efficiency room. It took me a bit of doing to get the water skipper bit, possibly due to my utter lack of skill with water skippers. I like the layout and aesthetics of this room a lot.

1N2E: I like this room a lot. The misdirection is subtle.

1N1E: A lot less painful than it first appeared. Not sure the massive swarm of roaches actually adds much to what is otherwise a nice lynchpin room. But with the invisibility they were at least easy to take care of. I did the chambers in the following order:

1N:

1S2E: I loved this room. Lots of cool stuff going for it. It's a little detail, but I really like the trapdoor bridge going under the pipe obstacle. That's a cool effect.

1S1E:

1N1W:


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DimWiddy
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I'll remove the swarm of roaches in 1N1E. Glad you were able to find it okay; the cracked walls are a little hard to see when you darken rooms.

I'm interested in your opinion on 2S1E, by the way, and the puzzle that you have to solve in order to find it.

As for 1W, ortho squares saved the day! But how'd you kill the eye at (23,6)? That was definitely unintentional. What you're supposed to have to do is use the spears and the single turn that the mimic is stunned after being pushed to get the mimic far enough away from you that you can get it onto the bridge without the eye seeing you, then use the water that the fallen trapdoors leave behind to get the mimics onto the pressure plates.

Thanks for the detailed feedback! I'm very glad you enjoyed.

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Insoluble
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DimWiddy wrote:
I'll remove the swarm of roaches in 1N1E. Glad you were able to find it okay; the cracked walls are a little hard to see when you darken rooms.
I'm interested in your opinion on 2S1E, by the way, and the puzzle that you have to solve in order to find it.

I won't lie, I cheated and used the editor to find some of the secret rooms. I guess that was one of the reasons I mentioned the darkness and rain before. But it's not a big deal. A careful search should reveal them.

The puzzle for finding 2S1E was neat. It's always a treat when secret rooms are hidden behind a puzzle instead of just a secret wall. The reason I didn't comment on the room 2S2E is that I haven't quite solved it yet!

DimWiddy wrote:
But how'd you kill the eye at (23,6)? That was definitely unintentional.

Some arcane DROD magic: You can push mimics and decoys over water and pits. Before they die, their swords will be able to attack whatever tile they happen to be over. There is a space where that eye is separated from the mainland by just one tile of water(diagonally to the southeast if I remember correctly.), so I pushed a decoy into that space facing NW to attack and kill the eye. That left lots of room to manipulate the mimics onto the trapdoors. The orthosquares should prevent that though since you should need all 4 mimics now.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 06-18-2015 02:15 PM]

Xindaris
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Alright, actually completed the full Highland Gardens. The rooms with vision tokens are way better than they would've been without them. I'd like to note that I don't have any idea what that area's description is talking about, it seems like it's missing half or so of its first sentence, as it starts with "Onsuary, but". I also have no clue what Beethro is talking about in 2N1W, it's just some island with puddles on it. Is there supposed to be something shocking there and it just hasn't been added in yet?

I really liked the secret puzzle to reach 2S1E too; I didn't find the room itself too hard, though it is interesting. Hopefully you realized while designing it that the player can use his sword while standing on the spike traps.

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DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Xindaris wrote:
I'd like to note that I don't have any idea what that area's description is talking about, it seems like it's missing half or so of its first sentence, as it starts with "Onsuary, but".

Yeah, I noticed that too last night and have fixed it. The full text reads:
"In his assignments around the Eighth, Beethro had met folks from Ephelna, guys from Glorthorred, people from Clarbag, relatives from Rasarus, and travellers from Tueno, but there remained one box on his mental list he hadn't ticked: he had never met a lunatic from the Lowlands of Oyst. Sure, there was the famine, the local wraithwing population, and the hundreds of feet of water come Onsuary, but a well-traveled guy like Beethro had to meet SOME grebbing nut who had tried his hand at carving out a niche down there. (He'd probably be the guy in the pub with the tallest, strongest glass of leaf juice.)

Thus, when he heard of a project to reclaim the castle of King Nimbrad the Inadvisable, which had been built at the bottom of the cliffs leading to the Highlands of Here, he was the first one in line, and the only one--it seemed that nobody else wanted to set foot inside those walls. Beethro couldn't imagine why. The keep had been left unkempt for decades, evacuated scores ago for seemingly no reason. The worst you could find in there was a hungry wraithwing, he reasoned. Thus, with a big lunch and an appetite for new knowledge in tow, Beethro set off to learn some more about Lowland culture."

Xindaris wrote:
I also have no cIlue what Beethro is talking about in 2N1W, it's just some island with puddles on it.s there supposed to be something shocking there and it just hasn't been added in yet?

Xindaris wrote: Hopefully you realized while designing it that the player can use his sword while standing on the spike traps.

Yep!

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DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Insoluble wrote:
You can push mimics and decoys over water and pits. Before they die, their swords will be able to attack whatever tile they happen to be over.

I may or may not have built some puzzles designed around that very concept... it's always felt odd to me that the world "moves last"--i.e., that a pit or water takes so long to kill you or your mimic, only doing so after you've smote that roach or hit that orb or whatever.

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[Last edited by DimWiddy at 06-18-2015 06:49 PM]

Insoluble
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DimWiddy wrote:

Insoluble wrote:
You can push mimics and decoys over water and pits. Before they die, their swords will be able to attack whatever tile they happen to be over.

I may or may not have built some puzzles designed around that very concept... it's always felt odd to me that the world "moves last"--i.e., that a pit or water takes so long to kill you or your mimic, only doing so after you've smote that roach or hit that orb or whatever.

It's actually weirder than that. The world doesn't quite move last, otherwise it would be possible to push a mimic clear across a pit with multiple pushes (i.e. push the mimic on to the pit, then off of it in the same turn). What seems to happen is that within turn, after a sworded character moves, the game checks for sword stabs, then checks for pit/water death. This seems to happen before the next monster/mimic moves (otherwise you'd be able to push on and off a pit in the same turn).

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Xindaris
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Okay, I've played through as much of Out of the Rain as seems possible at the moment. My notes:

1S: If the player hasn't cleared the room yet and goes east first, they get trapped forever and must restore. Consider adding a one-way tunnel escape from the east island so the player can freely try the room again after going east.

1S1E: The north/south oremite zone on the east side seems odd with how empty it is. Is it intended for more puzzle or just decoration?

2S: The powder keg just falls off the raft; not sure why it's even there. The eye that closes doors doesn't actually trap the player, as it's still easily possible to beat the room and leave out the south green door. I don't think the intended puzzle solution is actually required to win this room, as it doesn't seem at all hard.

3S: Easily beaten by stepping on the fuse and heading east, then using sword to kill the few babies that were spawned. Not sure why there are so many kegs, or really any kegs at all.

3S1E: This sticks the player in this room and the room to the east of it, with no way to go back and clear earlier rooms.

2S1E: I can't go back west after returning from the room to the east of this one thanks to the trapdoor doors. Please replace one of them with an arrow or something.

2S2E: "not this thing"? He also says the line when coming in from the north or south after beating the room, so if it's supposed to be about the stick you might want to fix that.

3S2E: Impossible? I can clear the room but then I can't get back out; I can't get the powder keg off of the little strip of oremited land it's on because any angle of approach I try requires land to be where I can't put it while standing where I have to stand to swing the spear, and even if I could I'm not sure where I would need to put it to safely be able to clear and escape.

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DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Yeah, Out of the Rain was the second level I built. Perhaps the cluttered vibe works against me; it seems I forgot a lot of details...

1S: Added. Should I update the attachment?

1S1E: Yeah, the final oremite chamber is intended to have a puzzle inside. I simply haven't had any ideas for it yet.

2S: I'll add another yellow door to cover the south green door. Thanks for pointing this one out.

3S: This room is unfinished; I am trying to come up with a puzzle idea that takes advantage of the fact that tar cannot grow over a fuse.

3S1E: Thaaaat's definitely a problem to address. I still need to come up with a puzzle for this one as well, as you can see. Fixed.

2S1E: I hadn't thought of that. I only thought of the player needing to go EAST... whoops. Fixed it.

2S2E: Yeah, it's supposed to refer to the stick. Ideally, Beethro would only say it the first time he stepped on the token. I have since learned of the "End" command, but don't know how to script it so that Beethro will only say it when he's stepped onto the token (or the square the token is in).

3S2E: I had at first thought it impossible when I built the room myself, but it is quite doable. For a hint, try standing on the pressure plate. Do you think I should add more "puzzle" after that part? Wouldn't want the room to feel empty

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Xindaris
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I think you can get it to only talk when Beethro steps on the stick token by placing the invisible character directly on top of the token with a "Wait for player to touch me" command, followed by the desired speech.

Also, your hint got me through the last room, so thanks. Given I needed help with that I'd say it's puzzle enough for that particular room, personally.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-20-2015 03:42 PM]

bomber50
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DimWiddy wrote:
2S2E: Yeah, it's supposed to refer to the stick. Ideally, Beethro would only say it the first time he stepped on the token. I have since learned of the "End" command, but don't know how to script it so that Beethro will only say it when he's stepped onto the token (or the square the token is in).

I haven't looked at the room in question, but this script should probably work, if I understand what you want to do correctly:

Wait for entity Player at [select token square]
Speech
End

DimWiddy
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 85
Registered: 04-28-2015
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Thanks bomber! I couldn't actually find the command to wait until Beethro was on a specific square, so I just told it it to wait until "Touch Me" and put the character on top of the weapon token.

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[Last edited by DimWiddy at 06-20-2015 05:57 PM]

DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Out of curiosity, has anyone played Lowland Walls yet? I'm surprised that Out of the Rain has been played already, yet it is a later level than Lowland Walls.

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Xindaris
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You...may have the stairs hooked up not the way you wanted them then. The stairs from the first level go straight to Out of the Rain. Or at least they did when I got to that point.

If you don't know, you can click stairs in the room editing to change which level and which entrance of that level they go to.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-23-2015 12:47 AM]

DimWiddy
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 85
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Uuuuuh, whoops. Yeah, I didn't make these levels in order. Stairs are fixed in the attachment, along with other criticisms. You can just use the level editor to test now, of course.

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Xindaris
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Just one small note for now: The description of the Lowland Walls is "Entrance 7" at the moment.

EDIT: Also, Lowland Walls 1E has nothing blocking the stairs, so the whole level is currently "optional".

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-23-2015 03:09 AM]

DimWiddy
Level: Delver
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Yup! Like I said, a WIP. Some of the rooms are unfinished as well (or even "unstarted"), e.g. 1W or 3N.

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Insoluble
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Okay, here are some comments on Lowland Walls:

In general, the difficulty curve for this level is all over the place. Some rooms are nearly trivial while others are super tricky. You may want to consider adjust some rooms up or down to make things more consistent. The design aesthetic is very nice though and the flooded castle wall setting comes across very well. Story elements maintain the mysterious atmosphere quite nicely.

Rooms:
1N: This was the trickiest room of the lot by far due to the fact that it includes both the lynchpin of finding a survivable platform setup and somewhat advanced guard manipulation.
2N: I like that a non required hallway room has at least a little bit of a puzzle to it. I'm assuming 3N is incomplete at the moment.

2N 1E: An interesting room with lots of wiggle room.
2N1W: A nice hoard management room with strategy involved.
1W: Extremely easy in comparison with the rest of the level. Is this possibly a tutorial for guard behavior? I’m not sure. If the hold is aimed at new player who are unfamiliar with guard movement then this is a nice thing to have though you may want to enforce it being the first room played (i.e. put this puzzle in the entrance). If not then you may want to add more to this room to make it a bit more challenging so that it doesn’t feel out of place with the rest of the level.

1S: A relatively straightforward room with pleasing symmetry. It wasn’t too difficult, but it can be fun to have nicely designed hack & slash room.

2S: A nice little clone potion puzzle.
2W1E The "Hey what's that bottle?" portion of the speech is a bit strange given that you need to have used clone potions in order to clear the green door in the room prior to this one and even be here.



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DimWiddy
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Thanks, Insoluble!

1N: Since it seems to be the most difficult room, I will move it to 3N. This is the platform positioning I use to clear this room: http://i.imgur.com/pLkRWOy.png

2N1E: Thanks, I'm pretty proud of that one. On this level, I challenged myself to build symmetrical, aesthetically pleasing rooms.

2N1W: Thanks again! And yes, the intended strategy is that you should let the tar grow behind you. I hadn't tried out killing the tar mother early, though, so nice find there. Should that perhaps be a challenge?

1W: This is an unfinished room, along with the current 3N. My usual architecture strategy of "throw down some pretty patterns and hope for the best" failed me here. I suppose I'll just scrap it.

1S: I would like to make this just a tad more difficult if I can. Should I give the roach queens an extra space each to spawn roaches?

2S: The eastern clone puzzle is pretty much finished, but the southern one is still in the works. I shall get rid of the fire traps, though.

2S1E: The skepticism is intended to be directed at the legitimacy of using a clone to explore rather than your "real" self, but I could make this more clear.

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I also do music! https://soundcloud.com/dimwiddy

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[Last edited by DimWiddy at 06-24-2015 07:18 AM]

Insoluble
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DimWiddy wrote:
1N: Since it seems to be the most difficult room, I will move it to 3N. This is the platform positioning I use to clear this room: http://i.imgur.com/pLkRWOy.png

Wow, that is so much more elegant than what I did! My eastern half was similar, but in the west I had a large gap in the middle of column 17. The effect was similar (gentryii are trapped but guards can get through.)

2N1W: Sure, make it a challenge! I'm all for having more scripted challenges in holds.

I wouldn't scrap 1W completely. It is a cool looking room. Maybe just add something for the guard to do once he's out. Uncuttable tar that needs double stabbing or an orb that needs striking but sets off a fire trap killing the striker. Something along those lines.

The dialog in 2S1E makes more sense now that you explained it.

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