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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (Not sure I'm doing this right)
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Xindaris
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File: Xindaris First Hold.hold (97 KB)
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icon Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (+3)  
Notice: This hold is through testing and has been fully published! Go get it in the Holds forum please.

So..I've been sort of poking around with map-making, and this is the results so far. I'm curious if this is the sort of thing people expect out of a user-made hold, if any of the rooms I've made so far are any good to anyone else, etc. Basically any advice more experienced hold-makers can give me on this is welcome.

I can confirm that I've beaten every room in the hold's present form, and I would attach my all-rooms demo to this post but I don't seem to be able to attach more than one file at once, so I guess I'll attach it to another post if you'd like.

**NOTICE**
As of this editing of this post, the hold now has every room and every level I intend to add to it, and I have tested every room and level for functionality (i.e., whether the intended solution works, whether backtracking works, etc.). Now is the time when I really need other people to test the hold for enjoyability, exploits I haven't thought of, so on, so forth. I don't want to submit this hold to the HA's until I'm confident it's as done as it can be, and I can't be confident of that if nobody else has played through it! So, please help?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 01-21-2016 03:25 PM]
06-13-2015 at 06:10 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Xindaris' Hold (+1)  
First things first: keep your hold Anyone Edit during the architectural process. No need to attach own demos yet, that's part of the HA process when you decide the hold is finished and ready to submit.

Your "Illusion" level uses Caravel-owned media for its image floors and walls. You need to send a message to mrimer asking for permission to use these.

This is a really impressive debut -- you've clearly put a lot of work into these rooms, there are some marvellous and original ideas, and a nice regard for room symmetry and aesthetics.

I have one main problem with the hold, and it is subjective, though I think many here will agree. I find the quantity in most rooms overwhelming. Invisible Brains 1E has, I think, over 400 roaches and 60 queens; getting through the middle section to reach the top and bottom sections is not hard, but it takes a long time. Then I find that the top and bottom sections are really difficult, but now if I leave to try another puzzle while I'm stuck on this one, the entire room will reset.

Looking through the other levels, I found a lot of similar issues. Rank and File: Entrance forces you to take long, winding passages to reach the orbs, giving the queens time to spawn a huge number of roaches. (I don't know whether it's even possible to keep some stalwarts alive by this stage; it doesn't seem to be.) Invisible Brains 1W has so many doors and pressure plates that I just can't keep in my head what they all do.

Invisible Brains 1N1W was strangely easy. I just killed all the eyes straight off, got the 2x3 platform, used it to kill the goblins and roaches (which was rather tedious) and then used the 1x1 platform to kill the brain. I didn't need any particular linchpins to get the wraithwings, and I didn't need all the platforms and tunnels.

Illusion was a nice break and really enjoyable to play :) Just make sure you ask for permission to use those images.

Good luck with finishing this hold! :thumbsup

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06-13-2015 at 07:09 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' Hold (+1)  
As far as asking permission goes, should I do that ASAP or wait until I genuinely want to submit the hold as a finished work? What I have up there I consider not really close to finishing, I have one level in the works and hope to have some more before it's done. Just thought it would be a good idea to try and straighten out what people think is a good room versus a bad one before I go off making a bunch of awful rooms.

Invisible Brains 1E was the very first room I did; it started out as "how can I make a room FULL of roaches and queens that the player is still somehow able to solve" and slowly morphed into the impetus for the whole idea of invisibility+brians. The crux of the level's puzzle is really managing the timing to clear the roaches between the walls and the arrows without letting the queens spawn any more, so really I could do with getting rid of most of the excess roaches, maybe leave a few scattered around. I never really thought of it as all that hard, but I have to admit when you actually said what the numbers were I was surprised. My brain just goes "Oh, that's a row of queens, a row of roaches, whatever" and doesn't realize how big a number that is.

1W...the general idea is to free the brains, kill the brains and then go into the maze and kill the roaches without letting anyone step on a bad button. I might look for some way to better distinguish bad buttons from good ones, maybe make the bad multi-push so that they look markedly different. The main thing is that most (maybe all?) bad buttons close off that 4x1 door under the queen, and nothing will open it again, so clicking on that should show a bunch of red on all the bad buttons.

1N1W is an issue; I'm just not sure how to force the player to take the intended solution. The wraithwings were thrown in as more of a distraction; the main idea is that the player should build a bridge using platforms, first to the north and then to the south, and have the brain pull all the roaches (then goblins) along so they die much faster than going back and forth to the button to kill them.

In Rank and File Entrance, the stalwarts aren't really supposed to survive very long, the two clones, decoy potions and especially mimic potions are meant to make it faster, especially if you run down just one of the mazes, open the way to that side and have the mimic clear queens out of the other. The initial concept I had for the whole level was big armies of everything, though that isn't actually the case with several of the rooms there, and I guess maybe that isn't a good idea in general? I might just make something different there, or make a narrower (which also means less queens) version of the same idea, if that's the case.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-13-2015 08:09 PM]
06-13-2015 at 08:08 PM
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D.Craven_0ne
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icon Re: Xindaris' Hold (+1)  
Just darken the room a bit and put some ceiling lights on the plates you want to mark.

Or you could put build markers on them. I tend to use hot tile build markers to highlight special entrances. (This does need a minimal amount of scripting)
Also it does not work with builders or engys in the room. Cos they'll actualy build the tiles.

Just a suggestion

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06-14-2015 at 07:59 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' Hold (0)  
I like that idea, I'm definitely implementing it. With a helpful scroll to let the player know exactly what a shiny button means.

The Persistence level I was going to include really feels like its own separate thing, so I'm going to branch it off into its own separate little hold, but suffice to say I learned how to script in this game in the process of trying to make the gimmick for that level function as intended, so I'm fairly comfortable with it, and extremely so with basic stuff like putting down build markers. I just wish the build/build marker commands could make arrows and certain kinds of tokens...ah well.

For future reference, is it better practice if, when I've edited my hold and want a new version looked at, I go and change the file in the first post, or if I make a new post with the file in it?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-15-2015 04:38 AM]
06-15-2015 at 04:34 AM
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D.Craven_0ne
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icon Re: Xindaris' Hold (+1)  
Usualy it fine to just list the updates in a new post, and direct people to the first post for the updated file.

Also:
You can alway put down a buildmarker of sorts where you wan't the token to be placed by the builder/engy, ad a wait for no build marker on the same spot that trigers a normal build command and places the token (if you wan't the floor to look the same way even the original floor) on the same turn. (MyScript Stuff <<< It's the first post in Arch. but direct links are always faster. :P)

But that's only needed if you wan't it to look like it was placed by them. You could just have the build command pop them in place randomly. :D

Can't help with arrows sadly. Guess the best you can do there is turn preplaced ones on and off.

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[Last edited by D.Craven_0ne at 06-15-2015 05:00 AM]
06-15-2015 at 04:55 AM
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skell
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (0)  
You're free to wait with asking for permission until you send it up for promotion, the HAs will ask about it during the promotion process :).

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06-17-2015 at 08:01 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
Okay, I've uploaded a new version! What I can remember to have changed:

-Removed Persistence altogether to work on as a separate little hold all its own
-Added 2 new levels, Little Cages and Temporal Symmetry, each of which has several new rooms in it
-New rooms in Invisible Brains, Rank and File, and Tick Tock
-Invisible Brains 1E roach crowd seriously reduced
-Rank and File Entrance: Replaced some of the north wall of roach queens with regular roaches
-The two roach/Pressure plate rooms have light over the "bad" plates to make it more obvious what to avoid pushing
-Messed around with visuals a bit, the light/dark stuff
-Added the Scrap Heap, a sort of post-completion bonus museum level of rejected rooms; moved the original Tick Tock 1W and Rank and File 2S1E into the Scrap Heap and replaced them with some of the aformentioned new rooms
-Changed the title slightly to reflect the possibility that this won't be the only hold I ever make
-Made the hold "anyone can edit"

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-17-2015 08:11 PM]
06-17-2015 at 08:07 PM
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Insoluble
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Cool hold so far. I've only played through a little bit so won't comment extensively yet. I just wanted to mention that both Temporal Symmetry: The Entrance and 1N can both be solved using only one time token. Not sure if this is intentional.

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06-18-2015 at 07:56 AM
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Xindaris
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Would you mind sending me a demo of those? I might leave it as-is and call doing it with one a challenge if it seems particularly clever to do so, but if it's something obvious I missed I'd like to fix it.

EDIT: I figured out how to do it in the entrance, and it is a bit obvious; adding conquer tokens should fix this leak.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-18-2015 03:38 PM]
06-18-2015 at 03:11 PM
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File: XFH Temporal Symmetry 1N Victory.demo (6.9 KB)
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
Xindaris wrote:
Would you mind sending me a demo of those? I might leave it as-is and call doing it with one a challenge if it seems particularly clever to do so, but if it's something obvious I missed I'd like to fix it.

EDIT: I figured out how to do it in the entrance, and it is a bit obvious; adding conquer tokens should fix this leak.

Here's the demo for 1N. It's super unoptimized (like by several hundred moves) because I didn't feel like counting the number of moves it would take me to clear the left and right wings, but it should get the idea across. As for the conquer tokens in the entrance, I'm not sure what you have in mind, but don't forget that mimics can also set off conquer tokens. If your goal is to force the player to move Beethro to enter the westernmost area, you can probably achieve this by covering the floor something you can't place a mimic on (using trap doors, open yellow gates, or force arrows). If you go that rout, don't forget to get the areas between the yellow gates as well. An alternative rout is to have an active seeding beacon next to each of those orbs (requiring someone with a sword in there to deactivate it).

EDIT: I forgot to mention. In 1W were the on-off pressure plates at the west end of the room red herrings? (The ones at (10,6) and (10,20)?) I did not use those at all. Nor did I use the trap door build markers or mirrors. So I'm not sure if what I ended up doing was the intended solution or not.
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Man, time clones are pretty tricky elements. I have a time clone level in a hold I'm building with 8 rooms. One of my beta testers literally broke all 8 of them. I'm still trying to work out how to patch up some of the unintended solutions he came up with!

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 06-19-2015 04:16 AM : add bit about 1W]
06-19-2015 at 03:56 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
Yeah, I also realized that putting down two conquer tokens doesn't force the player to hit both, as pushing a single one "activates" the conquering of it. So I put arrows in the direction the roaches should go all the way up to the last door on each side, and widened where the buttons are at the bottom a bit so the player can lure the roaches as far east/west as necessary for them to start moving north.

1W: The buttons are definitely not supposed to be red herrings, and actually I just realized that having mirrors there at all (they were intended as decoration or something) is a bit of a leak too, so I replaced those with immovable obstacles instead. Hopefully pointing arrows all in toward the mothers will make it impossible to actually kill both that way and require the intended solution at least in one half, as you can only get one time clone across the east bridge and you'd need two to escape both mud bridges.

1N: I'm okay with that solution, though it's actually a bit more trouble than the one I intended, and my intended solution doesn't require that sort of "guessing how long it will take me/doing this action forever" you did. What I do is have the time clone move just north of the open yellow door and immediately start swiping up and down on either the left or right side until a roach is about to kill him, and then go back and push the clone up to where his swiping actually blocks/kills that side long enough to get to a north or south queen on the other side.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-19-2015 04:47 AM]
06-19-2015 at 04:45 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
New file uploaded! Changes:

-Leaks hopefully fixed in Temporal Symmetry Entrance and 1W, and another in 1E similar to the one in 1W; added vision token to Temporal Symmetry 1E
-Added 2 new rooms to Little Cages, 2 to Temporal Symmetry, 1 to Rank and File
-1 new room in Scrap Heap (neat-looking/interesting but ultimately bad room idea for Temporal Symmetry)

By the way, if anyone's tried it I'm curious whether Little Cages 2N (without "cheating" by looking at it in the map editor) is a reasonable challenge or just annoying to deal with. If it's really annoying to people I may just scrap it and replace with something less potentially trial-and-error.

EDIT: Just uploaded a NEW new version, with another room in Temporal Symmetry, and more importantly, the aforementioned leak fix in Temporal Symmetry 1W actually broke the intended solution in two different ways. I've now fixed that so that it can be solved again.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-20-2015 05:29 PM]
06-19-2015 at 05:51 PM
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Xindaris
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Another new version!
-2 new rooms in Temporal Symmetry
-Added a challenge displayed after beating each level and returning to level select
-Added challenges to a couple of rooms asking the player to do things I think are possible but which are beyond my own skill level (would appreciate anyone more skilled testing them to see if they are doable/working correctly)

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-21-2015 09:12 PM]
06-21-2015 at 09:11 PM
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Insoluble
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I just played through the revised Temporal Symmetry. A few comments.

The Entrance: The arrows certainly fix the previous problem, but now it is not possible to get to 1E and 1W. Consider trapdoors instead.

1W: You've fixed the unintended solution, but how do I get out? Am I missing something?

1E: I liked this room a lot. I didn't spot the time token at first as it's a bit out of the way, but once I realized I needed something extra to solve the room I found it. Are the builders there for anything in particular, or just so the room can have some symmetry with 1W?

1N1W: Cool room. I did not end up using all the eyes, but it's nice not having to be super efficient with everything. You can always have it as a challenge to use as few eyes as possible (I used 6).

1N1E I only used 1 time clone again, but I can see how two would be more efficient at keeping the briar back thus allowing you to let it grow faster and solve the room more quickly.

2N1W: Could use a checkpoint.

2N1E: The challenge is possible, and not all that bad really once you get a pattern going. Is this one you need a demo for? The challenge script is a bit buggy. There are two issues with it.

First, the script awards even if you haven't met the requirements of the challenge. This is because you have it set to "Wait for entity Player". But when you hit tab, everything resets, including scripting. What you really want here is "Wait for entity double". This will go off when the time clone takes the dagger.

Second, the script keeps awarding the challenge every time you enter the room after you clear it with the challenge. I've had this happen to about a million of my rooms to, so I have some stock solutions to it. Consider adding something like this to the beginning of the script:

If...
	Wait for clean room
     End
If End


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[Last edited by Insoluble at 06-24-2015 08:32 AM]
06-24-2015 at 08:27 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
Entrance and 2N1W were derps. I'm just adding a bit more of the outer pathway to fix the former, and there are now checkpoints in the latter.

2N1E: For some reason I just kept blocking my own movement with the sword, and could never quite get the hang of it until I added the dagger. At any rate I like having a dagger in that room because it's symmetry with the room two west of it also having a dagger. Thanks for the challenge scripting tip; I'll fix all the other challenges I've added that way too.

1N1W: The "intended" solution uses just 5, one of which is never on a button. I'm not completely sure how to check a challenge like that though. Would need some way to count how many eyes there are or how many have been killed when the player reaches the one at the end of the center road I guess? The main problem is I can't find any "detect an enemy has been killed in general" command.

1W: Fixing the leaks actually made this a bit trickier than it originally had been, with the rock in the center making it more difficult to go east/west after some of the trapdoors are down. Depending on which trapdoor you dropped last you're either on the center island's west side with a platform and can go around to the bridge, on the east side and can just walk across the bridge, or you're on the north or south end with a platform and can go around to the bridge, or you've stranded yourself somewhere with no platform, which is a similar self-mussed situation to having blocked yourself off from the timeclone in 1E.

1E: Well, they're symmetry, and they also build and unbuild the little bridge in a way that lets the player both bring platforms through north/south that they otherwise couldn't and walk across east/west whenever they want to.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-24-2015 05:18 PM]
06-24-2015 at 04:30 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (+1)  
New version uploaded! Changes:

-General fixes as mentioned in above two posts
-"Graphical" fixes in Temporal Symmetry (in rooms I've finished, the pits are supposed to always have dark over them).
-Added 3N1W to Temporal Symmetry. If THIS one can be done with one time clone I'd love to see a demo, because it doesn't seem possible. Even if it is I'll definitely not remove a token, just maybe add a challenge for doing it with one.
-Attempted to add the challenge to Temporal Symmetry 1N1W. It appears to work as intended but I'm not completely sure because, irritatingly, there seems to be no reliable way to trace the current value of a variable while testing a level. Was it really that hard to program in a "Speech: Var" command?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-25-2015 01:15 AM]
06-24-2015 at 10:55 PM
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Would you accept Speech "$variable_name$"?

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06-25-2015 at 02:25 AM
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Ctrl+F7 (while in the editor, or while playing a hold you built) will show a watch overlay with all the variables that are currently in scope as well.

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06-25-2015 at 02:33 AM
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Xindaris
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Okay, so it's just my own ignorance and not a lack in design. Thank you, that's very good to know!

Indeed, thanks to your help I found that the challenge script was in fact broken, and needed a "Wait 0 turn" command between loops to not count a single monster kill...ten thousand and one times?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-25-2015 05:24 AM]
06-25-2015 at 05:16 AM
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File: XFH Temporal Symmetry 3N1W Victory.demo (6.2 KB)
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (0)  
Xindaris wrote:
2N1E: For some reason I just kept blocking my own movement with the sword, and could never quite get the hang of it until I added the dagger. At any rate I like having a dagger in that room because it's symmetry with the room two west of it also having a dagger. Thanks for the challenge scripting tip; I'll fix all the other challenges I've added that way too.
You're welcome! Like I said, it's actually a problem that's happened to me many times so I had the script readily available. As for the challenge itself, I found it easiest to have the time clone in a pattern with 1 turn having the sword on (20,15) and two turns without. That gives you enough time to get through. After that it's just leading the snake through a path that's a multiple of 3 several times in a row (which isn't too hard to calculate since the bottom of the corridor is 3 tiles long).
Xindaris wrote:
1N1W: The "intended" solution uses just 5, one of which is never on a button.
That's way more elegant than my solution. Very nice!
Xindaris wrote:
1W: Fixing the leaks actually made this a bit trickier than it originally had been, with the rock in the center making it more difficult to go east/west after some of the trapdoors are down. Depending on which trapdoor you dropped last you're either on the center island's west side with a platform and can go around to the bridge, on the east side and can just walk across the bridge, or you're on the north or south end with a platform and can go around to the bridge, or you've stranded yourself somewhere with no platform, which is a similar self-mussed situation to having blocked yourself off from the timeclone in 1E.
Wow, somehow I wasn't processing that there were bridges that could be dropped there. That makes a whole lot more sense. Cool room. Solved thanks!

Xindaris wrote:
-Added 3N1W to Temporal Symmetry. If THIS one can be done with one time clone I'd love to see a demo, because it doesn't seem possible. Even if it is I'll definitely not remove a token, just maybe add a challenge for doing it with one.
I hate to be that guy... (see attached. You'll probably want to alter the room to prevent this.)

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06-26-2015 at 05:13 AM
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Xindaris
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Derp.

Uploaded new version to first post with that leak fixed and the challenge in 1N1W now counts how many eyes have been killed correctly.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-27-2015 07:11 PM]
06-27-2015 at 07:10 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold (0)  
Big new version at last! Changes I can recall:
-Temporal Symmetry is now a COMPLETE level, with all 12 of the room slots I had for it filled. The new 3N1E I'm fairly proud of, as the kind of puzzle it is is actually pretty hard to design with the constraint of it also being a symmetrical room.
-Fusion has four new rooms, primarily adding Little Cages and Temporal Symmetry to the list of things combined with other things (including with each other)
-Minor improvements in various areas whose necessity was illuminated by my actual running through the levels in proper game-playing mode instead of just F5 mode.
-I have come up with partial rooms in a couple of places, but not fully finished them. If anyone has a look at those rooms-in-progress and has a good idea for how to complete them in an interesting/compelling way, or thinks they should just be cut off with a way to the exit as-is, I'm all..eyes, I guess, this is a text forum not a sound forum where ears would make sense.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-11-2015 05:43 PM]
07-11-2015 at 05:39 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (+1)  
One more update post for now:
-Added rooms to/completed rooms in Invisible Brains, Tick Tock, Little Cages, and (most of all) Fusion, bringing all levels to what I feel is completion, at least in terms of having all the rooms I wanted them to have.
-Made various minor adjustments while testing the hold for myself.
-Discovered the hold had somehow gone back to "only me and masters" edit instead of "Anyone", fixed that.

The hold now has 78 rooms of puzzles and some other navigational and "bonus" rooms. I really want other people to look into the hold and find any evidently unintended solutions, maybe suggest changes to rooms that would improve them in this way or that, etc.
There are challenges built into some rooms (such as Invisible Brains 2N 1W) that I'm not sure are actually possible at all; anyone who really knows their way around this game and is willing to test them and let me know about them would be really appreciated.


Also, in Fusion 1N1E I would like to have a challenge that counts how many stalwarts the player got killed or kept alive, but I can't figure out any way to either count exactly how many monsters or stalwarts got killed, or to count how many stalwarts there are in the room at any given time. Any help doing this would be appreciated.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-17-2015 06:31 PM]
07-17-2015 at 06:29 PM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
I've been playing through this hold bit by bit and still like it a lot. I haven't revisited Temporal Symmetry since the last update, but hope to do so. Meanwhile, I've been playing through Invisible Brains. The rooms seem to be good so far. The only minor detail I caught was that in 1W, the pressure plate at (23,14) seems to be one of the "bad" ones and does not appear to have lighting. Please add or adjust the lighting on that one so that it shows up like the other ones. Otherwise, this was a really neat room. I haven't managed the challenge in 2N1W yet, but will keep at it!

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07-27-2015 at 12:31 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
IB 1W: Yeah, I'll add lighting to that button.

IB 1N1W: I wish I could look at something like that and work out for sure whether it's possible. As is, the only way I'll know about any of the challenges I couldn't do is if someone does do them. Eh.

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07-27-2015 at 02:17 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
I've uploaded a new version with another light in IB 1W and a leak fix in TS 3N. I forgot that you can push wraithwings up against arrows, whoops!

There may be some other small changes I forgot, not sure.

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07-31-2015 at 03:20 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
New version. Two challenges I wanted to add to Fusion 1N1E have been added now that I've figured out how to code them. If there are any other changes I can't remember them, but they're probably good things.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-05-2015 02:50 AM]
09-05-2015 at 02:50 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
Well, there haven't been any comments from anyone but me in about..two months. Is it time to submit this hold for final approval? And if it is, should I remove the bomb-mimic challenge in IB's exit room as probably unbeatable? And are there any others I should remove for that reason?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 10-14-2015 07:31 PM]
10-14-2015 at 07:31 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Xindaris' First Hold -- Complete, Testing Needed! (0)  
I'll give it a test. Downloading now.
10-14-2015 at 08:39 PM
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