Chaco
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Unsealed Stronghold

adS wrote:
1S7E: I don't need the orb at /34, 26)

That's on purpose; it's just there to make the south roach queens automatically die to make the trip back slightly easier.

1S5E: What is the purpose of the left half of the room?

It's to show that crumbly walls block eye sight, and instantly unblock them when destroyed. It's just a quick introduction to the mechanic more fully used in the right half of the room, and it also sets up the miniature puzzle in the left half of 1S6E.

How do I leave the level? Do I have to play the next level in the editor?

I left the level 4 stairs assigned to End Hold by mistake; the next version should have them go to level 5 like they're supposed to.

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adS
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Unlicensed Laboratory

3S2E: I wonder if this excellent rooms is a bit too hard - as is 2S1W. Isn't this a hold for beginners (sort of)?

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Chaco
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adS wrote:
Unlicensed Laboratory

3S2E: I wonder if this excellent rooms is a bit too hard - as is 2S1W. Isn't this a hold for beginners (sort of)?

After giving this some thought, yeah, 3S2E is probably too hard. I am going to keep 2S1W in though, I think it's reasonable. I do want this to be a slightly easier hold than some of my normal fare, but I have snuck some hard rooms into it (like Unkempt Chambers 2N3E, Unchecked Jail 2E, Unsealed Stronghold 4E). I think I've done a fairly good job making sure even the secret rooms are accessible, but I certainly appreciate the commentary.

I'll try to get some more novice DROD players to play through the hold and tell me what they think, but as you know there aren't many of them around, so it will be a bit slow going.

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Chaco
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Another update already? Sure, why not?

Unlicensed Laboratory

- New rooms: 3S1E, 4S1W, 4S, 5S, 5S1E, 6S, 6S1E, 7S, 7S1W, 7S1E

- The old 3S2E has been moved to a new (editor-only) level, "Unused Annex", which is probably going to eventually be a post-mastery level full of removed-but-still-interesting rooms.

- "Unused Annex" also has a new room 1S1E.

I'm fairly sure Untenable Factory is going to be the last required level in the hold, and is most likely going to stick to just the two new elements posted there (constructs and floor spikes). I might also introduce sister doors. All that together should give plenty of puzzle potential.

EDIT:

I just posted another minor update. If you already downloaded the hold, you don't necessarily need to update again, but there's some small fixes:

- Added some more checkpoints to some Unhinged Storehouse and Unkempt Chambers rooms

- Fixed the east orb in Unkempt Chambers 3S that wasn't closing and opening the right doors. The room's still solvable without it (use the west orb) but now the room is solvable from both entrances like I intended.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-14-2015 11:52 PM]

Elfstone
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Very good hold - so far. I managed Level 1 and enjoyed all of it.

Level two - I haven't been able to complete UC:2E because

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adS
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Elfstone wrote:
Very good hold - so far. I managed Level 1 and enjoyed all of it.

Level two - I haven't been able to complete UC:2E because

Click here to view the secret text

×I can't figure out how to keep the roach in the trapdoor corridor; there is obviously some trick I'm missing - perhaps this is too much of a jump in difficulty?

This room has been changed several times and at first sight I was puzzled, too.

However, it's not very difficult.






Let me know if you need more hints.

Best wishes,

adS

Edit: This room is a training room for a harder room in the next level.

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[Last edited by adS at 05-16-2015 10:19 AM]

adS
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Unchecked Jail

2N5E: The wall at (31,15) and the trapdoor at (17,19) are not needed.


Unlicensed Laboratory

7S1W: Much simpler than it looks This room might be frustrating for beginners...

4S: I would remove the two cages with monsters. They have no function whatsoever.

5S: I wonder what the shortest solution is

6S: Is there any trick in the intended solution? My solution was simply straightforward and very long.

2S1E: Nice and not too difficult challenge.

6S1E: Another room with a very long solution(?)

7S1E: Even longer. Perhaps you add a few checkpoints.


Best wishes from Germany,

adS

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Nuntar
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4S: The function of the cages is to demonstrate that mud babies are not killed on hot tiles, which is necessary knowledge for the puzzle.

6S: There is a trick.

6S1E: I agree this room is unnecessarily long -- once you've got the pattern down it's just a matter of doing the same things several times.

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adS
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Nuntar wrote:
6S: There is a trick.

Click here to view the secret text

×A mud baby at (15,19) will keep the mud from growing an uncuttable edge.

Hm, I didn't even think about that.



Best wishes,

adS


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adS
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Unlicensed Laboratory

2S3E: This room was invented by the devil

By far the best room in the hold!

And probably not what a beginner would expect.
Excellent - unless somebody solves it '"naively" with the original time limit'.


By the way, the placement of check-marks in these two rooms could be better. Should be one move form hitting the orbs.

Best wishes,

adS

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Chaco
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A minor update today, just to address a few small yet important matters:

Unlicensed Laboratory

- New room in 6S1E, to replace the old one that was kind of uninspired. The new room should be both more fun to solve and more fun to optimize.

- The old room was moved to Unused Annex 2N, just for those crazy optimizers. I might end up removing it anyway, but we'll see.

- Added a return passage to 5S to avoid a backtracking problem if the player exited to the south with the room unclear (by spawning a mud baby after the green door was opened).

- Fixed 6S so the bottom blob's mud baby can't be used to block itself.

- Added a few more checkpoints to some rooms.

Untenable Factory

- Started this level, and added a couple of introductory Construct rooms to it. Nothing substantial here yet.

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Jacob
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Can I get a hint/demo for US 2S5E - feels quite messy and I can't seem to keep enough eyes asleep to get the roach across (assuming that is what needs to be done)

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Chaco
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Jacob wrote:
Can I get a hint/demo for US 2S5E - feels quite messy and I can't seem to keep enough eyes asleep to get the roach across (assuming that is what needs to be done)

Yes, that's definitely what you need to be doing.

For starters, there's a critical difference between the west and east eye shafts:



After that, it's just a matter of distributing the awake eyes so that they form a proper bridge for the roach. The lone yellow door at (24, 10) will help form a backstop.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-27-2015 11:39 PM]

Chaco
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I'm going to be on a trip to see family over the next week or so, so now's a good time to post another update.

Untenable Factory

- New rooms 2N1E, 1N1E, 2N2E, 1N2E, 4N2E, 3N3E.

- 1N1W no longer required, so the blue door can actually be dropped now.

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UL: 2S1W

Is there an intended lynchpin here to simply clear all the mud before going for the final roach (on the left)?

Or is the one-way mechanism broken and this is a US?

Will try to post more in-depth comments on the rest of the hold at some point (although I seem to always post that and never get round to it)

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adS
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Jacob wrote:
UL: 2S1W

Is there an intended lynchpin here to simply clear all the mud before going for the final roach (on the left)?

Or is the one-way mechanism broken and this is a US?

Will try to post more in-depth comments on the rest of the hold at some point (although I seem to always post that and never get round to it)

How do you kill the mud baby at (14,15) if you kill all the mud?

best wishes,

adS

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Jacob
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File: PC Unlicensed Laboratory 2S1W Victory.demo (4.1 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

Demo demonstrating US for UL: 2S1W

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adS
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Hm,

this is definitely not intended.
I think your solution ruins the room

However, see below.

The intended solution is trickier and shorter and much nicer.

I did not even think about hitting the orb twice.

I have attached the intended solution (I think) but will remove it later.

I am not an architect: Is it enough to change the room so that the orb at (12,17) closes the door at (12,14) instead of toggling it?

Best wishes, adS


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Chaco
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adS wrote:

I am not an architect: Is it enough to change the room so that the orb at (12,17) closes the door at (12,14) instead of toggling it?

I think the room also works if that orb toggles the mud baby's trapping-door instead of just closing it, but I think it's clearer to the player what's going on if I just have it close both of the indicated doors.

Anyway, new version uploaded:

- New Unchecked Jail secret room

- Unlicensed Laboratory 2S1W should be fixed now

- Lots of new rooms in Untenable Factory. This is about how big the map should be, but I'm still thinking about whether I might want to replace some rooms in there.

- New rooms in Unused Annex that were rejected from the main hold but are still okay to include in a postmastery section

To do:

- I'm thinking about including adS' challenge in Unchecked Jail where you have to kill all roaches on hot tiles but never stab any. I think that's probably a good idea since doing so requires the player to be aware of how to use their sword as an obstacle (particularly with handling the southeast roach).

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adS
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The new secret room Uncheck Jail 1N4W is very nice and should be solvable by (somewhat) inexperienced players - hopefully.

I wonder what the intended solution is in Unlicensed Laboratory 3S1E.

You may walk to both orbs even after all trapdoors and the whole mud has been killed.

adS.



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[Last edited by adS at 06-18-2015 07:28 PM]

Chaco
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adS wrote:
I wonder what the intended solution is in Unlicensed Laboratory 3S1E.

You may walk to both orbs even after all trapdoors and the whole mud has been killed.

The intended solution is just to realize that the orbs up top can be hit multiple times, and the eyes can be killed one by one in stages, rather than all at once when both the red doors and black doors are open.

It's meant to be an easy room, especially since there are some hard rooms on this floor.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 06-19-2015 10:12 PM]

adS
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Chaco wrote:

...

It's meant to be an easy room, especially since there are some hard rooms on this floor.

Indeed.

For example, 4S1E is fabulous, but isn't it too hard for beginners or players with little experience? For me it was quite difficult.

I think it should not be required.

Untenable Factory

3N3E is a bit tedious´. Wouldn't it be enough to to the trick once?

Best wishes,

adS

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[Last edited by adS at 06-20-2015 03:59 PM]

Chaco
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adS wrote:
For example, 4S1E is fabulous, but isn't it too hard for beginners or players with little experience? For me it was quite difficult.

I think it should not be required.

I will agree it's one of the harder rooms on the level, but I think it's reasonable enough to be a required room (compared to the rooms I did make secret on this level). And I think by the time a beginner makes it to level 5 they should have a good grasp on how to solve each of the puzzles in the hold.

The player has already been introduced to the idea of funnelling spare monsters into a large chamber in Unsealed Stronghold 4E, Unkempt Chambers 2S1E (if they visited and played around with that secret room) and a variant in Unlicensed Laboratory 4S. From there it should be reasonable to come up with a plan once the player realizes what each of the widgets in the room are for.

And, well, there's always the Hints and Solutions board.

I appreciate the comment though.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 06-20-2015 03:55 PM]

adS
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Oops,

I have edited my previous posting after you replied. Pleas check again.

Anyway:

Untenable Factory

4N3E

I am not sure what the intended solution is.



Edited: Of course, the same "trick" works in 3N2E as well.

Regarding UL, 4S1E:

What I found rather difficult was to create a pattern that produces 24 babies. The rest was not difficult.

Of course, other people may find it not that difficult.

Best withes,

adS

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[Last edited by adS at 06-20-2015 04:20 PM]

Chaco
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adS wrote:
3N3E is a bit tedious. Wouldn't it be enough to to the trick once?

I'm not sure what you mean. The difficult part of the room is getting the construct across the bridge. The roach traps are just there to make sure the construct arrives at where it's needed.

adS wrote:
Untenable Factory

4N3E

I am not sure what the intended solution is.

Click here to view the secret text

×If I kill the construct by backsliding in this position:

I have lots of time to hit the orb and leave the corridor before the constructs enters it.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think since this is a secret room it's okay to hint at the solution I want by making the passageway a bit longer.

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Nuntar
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Solved all except 5N.

2N4E seems to be broken: I just killed the first three constructs on the floor spikes, hit the orbs to open the NW orb, hit it, killed everything and walked out.

* * *

5N cleared! That was an epic final battle; it felt it might have worked better as a room beyond the blue door rather than a mere secret.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 06-20-2015 05:14 PM]

adS
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Chaco wrote:
… in other words, the perfect hold to recommend a new player start out with.

I am afraid, taking into account how difficult some rooms in Untenable Factory are I would not recommend it to a "new player".

However, I would recommend to everybody else

Best wishes,

adS

PS:

Just to make sure this is the intended solution in UF 2N2E: right?

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[Last edited by adS at 06-21-2015 01:56 PM]

Chaco
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adS wrote:

Chaco wrote:
… in other words, the perfect hold to recommend a new player start out with.

I am afraid, taking into account how difficult some rooms in Untenable Factory are I would not recommend it to a "new player".

However, I would recommend to everybody else

I deliberately designed this hold to start out easy, get more difficult at the end, but still have the end be more accessible and easier than my other published holds. I wouldn't recommend Journey to Rooted Hold level 18, Simon's Dungeon level 3, or Phil's Dungeon level 4 to new players, but I would totally recommend the holds themselves to new players since they start out reasonable, and the later levels build on earlier levels.

That's even more true in this hold than in the examples I cited since there's so much re-use of puzzle widgets and such a restricted element set.

In short, I'm happy with the way the hold has turned out so far.

Just to make sure this is the intended solution in UF 2N2E:

Click here to view the secret text

×Drive a queen to (20,17),

right?

Yes, that's one of two intended solutions.

Nuntar wrote:

2N4E seems to be broken: I just killed the first three constructs on the floor spikes, hit the orbs to open the NW orb, hit it, killed everything and walked out.

How did you deal with the eastern roach without killing it on the nearby floor spikes? Hmm, well I guess it might be possible to make a construct-trap for that; let me make a few changes so that's no longer possible.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 06-21-2015 02:30 PM]

Nuntar
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I hit the southern orb, then moved to the northern orb as quickly as possible, struck it and then simply turned round to kill the roach above me.

2N2E:

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adS
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Nuntar wrote:
I hit the southern orb, then moved to the northern orb as quickly as possible, struck it and then simply turned round to kill the roach above me.

So did I.

Nuntar wrote: 2N2E:

Click here to view the secret text

×I placed the queens at (5,1) and (6,1) so a baby would be at (20,16) every cycle. This felt like a very nice linchpin so, even if it was unintended, I hope you leave it in or make a challenge for it.

What a nice trick. The optimizera will love it since this way is certainly faster

I'm impressed

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