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Nuntar
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icon Guard with dagger (0)  
Suppose a dagger-wielding guard is facing south, and two squares north of Beethro. If you wait, the guard can move south, which kills Beethro, as expected.

But if the guard is only one square north of Beethro, he is unable to kill him, and you can go on pressing Wait indefinitely.

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11-28-2014 at 01:26 AM
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disoriented
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
Guards don't attempt to move to the square Beethro is currently on.

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11-28-2014 at 01:44 AM
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
This is awesome. NOT A BUG.

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11-28-2014 at 04:19 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
I haven't looked, but this is true despite the fact that guards with sticks can kill players?

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11-28-2014 at 04:31 AM
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disoriented
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
quote:
blorx1 wrote:
I haven't looked, but this is true despite the fact that guards with sticks can kill players?

Does that even make sense?

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11-28-2014 at 04:38 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
No, but it seems to happen in that passing of the hold room.

It appears that guards with stick can step to kill if their stick is on top of you.

I would guess that the reason why guards with daggers don't has to do with brains getting confused when they can path on top of the player (brains path through daggers, right?)

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 11-28-2014 04:48 AM]
11-28-2014 at 04:47 AM
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The spitemaster
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
No, that is not the case. Those guards are scripted characters, not guards. Their coding is different than whatever you are using to make your guards.

Imperative Flexible Beelining, Required target, deadly and move to player are the commands that I used to make them.

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11-28-2014 at 02:35 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
I believe a guard with a dagger should still try to kill the player. Or push the player if he has a stick.

Unless there are complaints I am going to change this.

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05-17-2015 at 09:54 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+2)  
Fixed for 5.0.2:
- guards armed with daggers will stab their target by moving into it
- Equipped with sword or a caber they will stay in place to deal an attack
- Staff and pickaxe will push the target forward
- Spear will move into the target effectively killing it by a stab

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05-19-2015 at 10:30 PM
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Krishh
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
The same fix should probably also be applied to stalwarts and soldiers.
05-20-2015 at 10:01 AM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+5)  
An update has been just pushed and:
1. Guards and stalwarts and slayers with sticks treat bombs as regular obstacles so they won't hesitate to hit them with a stick.
2. Guards and stalwarts with daggers will directly move towards their target and won't bother to slowly turn
3. Guards and stalwarts when moving with a dagger will face the direction of the movement
4. When the guards and stalwarts wielding daggers can't move they'll face the direction they wanted to move
5. Slayer with a weapon other than hook will prefer body kills over weapon kills
6. Slayer does not turn when moving with dagger equipped because it's consistent with how they move over oremites

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05-21-2015 at 06:36 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
Stalwarts/soldiers don't seem to stab correctly with a dagger in 5.0.2.1004. They won't kill stuff with a dagger unless they're pushed.

Compare this with a guard, which seems to act the way I expect, being able to kill stuff with the dagger when they move.
08-10-2015 at 09:44 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
Fixed in 5.1, Stalwarts and Soldiers now correctly step on enemies while they wield dagger.

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10-31-2015 at 03:29 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+2)  
Been playing around with guards, stalwarts, soldiers and slayers with various weapons:

Guards

* Guards will correctly push kegs when armed with a staff, and are not scared of bombs.
* Guards appear to act mostly correctly when armed with a dagger. One exception, a guard surrounded by bombs can "snap" change his orientation instead of turning one step at a time, when such a move would kill the player.
* Guards appear to understand what moves are killing moves with each weapon and will always prioritise those over a push if it is possible.
* Guards are only complacent around bombs when armed with a staff, even though some weapons will allow them to freely move over a bomb or push a keg. For example a guard with a spear won't rotate his weapon on top of a keg to push it out of the way, and guards with cabers will never set off bombs. This is probably for the best and doesn't need changing, but thought I'd mention it anyway to prove I've tested it.
* Guards with pickaxe will cut briar correctly if you trick them into doing it.

Slayers

Slayers are getting very confused by different weapons. They don't understand how the dagger works and assume they can only perform body kills, refusing to make guaranteed kills when a single square away if you're facing a certain way. When armed with a pushing weapon like a caber, they will sometimes push you, but usually they just won't, you can get them to stand right behind you with their caber on a square adjacent to you and they will just stand still. I'm unable to provide a breakdown of the logic here, just that it often seems odd. A slayer armed with a dagger doesn't understand that his weapon does not block my movement, and it's extremely trivial to just walk up to him and stab him. In this case I think any time he would otherwise try to rotate to the opposite direction I'm facing, he should instead choose to run away. A dagger slayer should be more cowardly given his priority for survival.

Stalwart/Soldier

Everything appears to be working correctly, although it's much harder to test certain cases due to their completely dumb logic, like how they won't even directly face their target most of the time. When armed with a staff they will happily "stunlock" their target against a wall, which is nice.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 11-07-2015 03:30 PM]
11-07-2015 at 03:25 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
5.1.0.1007:
* Guards with a dagger will no longer turn-by-bump in ways that are impossible to execute by the player (so no turn-by-bump into walls)
! Slayers wielding any weapon other than dagger will act exactly as if they had their hook. If they have the dagger they'll move exactly the same too, except if directly next to the player in which case they'll do body kills

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[Last edited by skell at 11-08-2015 01:50 PM]
11-08-2015 at 01:20 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
quote:
skell wrote:
5.1.0.1007:
* Guards with a dagger will no longer turn-by-bump in ways that are impossible to execute by the player (so no turn-by-bump into walls)

Some strange observations:

* If completely surrounded by walls or similar blocking obstacle, guards will turn to face you but will not turn to face NW.
* If bombs or kegs are placed in the surrounding 8 squares, the guard will blow himself up. If you replace some of these bombs / kegs with ones that are one square away (so all possible moves are still fatal), they will blow themselves up under some configurations, but curiously not a configuration where all 8 bombs/kegs are 1 tile away.

quote:
skell wrote:
! Slayers wielding any weapon other than dagger will act exactly as if they had their hook. If they have the dagger they'll move exactly the same too, except if directly next to the player in which case they'll do body kills

If a slayer is to the NE of a bomb, facing south, and you approach from the W, the slayer will stand still and not turn because he believes he will blow the bomb up if he turns. This allows you to stand next to him and he will not body kill you, probably because if he had the hook doing so would blow up the bomb. I guess it's just worth accepting that slayers don't work well with daggers and this stuff isn't worth changing.

With cabers the slayer is now working much better and is now back to making moves that would have killed you if he was wielding the hook. It's fun to get shoved around by a slayer!:thumbsup
11-08-2015 at 07:18 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
I am getting tired of these guards and slayers :|

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11-08-2015 at 07:39 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
Good news, this part of my previous post:
quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
* If completely surrounded by walls or similar blocking obstacle, guards will turn to face you but will not turn to face NW.

I am unable to replicate, so I guess somehow it got fixed during the merge into 5.1.0.6345???? :thumbsup

The other issues in my previous post with guards surrounded by bombs and slayers with daggers still hold true. But I can confirm that the other behaviours regarding custom weapon monsters I was saw in 5.1.0.1007 have made it in to 5.1.0.6345.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 01-13-2016 09:35 PM]
01-13-2016 at 09:34 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
Oh man this just keeps going doesn't it.

Stalwarts with daggers appear to be ONLY able to kill with a body attack. They should also be able to kill in the adjacent square on a turn where the move, but can't.

Try getting a stalwart with a dagger to kill a waterskipper stranded on land. The stalwart will always die, but he shouldn't.
01-15-2016 at 07:30 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
Bump because this must be done for 5.1

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01-24-2016 at 09:01 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
Mike, I will be fixing this bug today. Along with the other two that will be all I feel we need to fix for 5.1 :).

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02-08-2016 at 03:23 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+7)  
Done!

Here is a list of all test cases I've checked:
- "Stalwart with a dagger won't bother to turn around"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will body-kill"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will not body-kill if that would blow a bomb"
- "Stalwart with a caber on monster will stay in place to kill the monster"
- "Stalwart with a staff on monster will move forward"
- "Stalwart with a pick-axe on monster will move forward"
- "Stalwart with a spear on monster will move into the monster to kill"
- "Stalwart with a spear on monster will move into the monster to kill, even if bomb is one tile further because it won't be stabbed"
- "Stalwart with a staff won't be afraid of attacking bombs"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction he's moving"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move even NW"
- "Stalwart with a dagger will refuse to kill himself when closely surrounded by bombs"
- "Stalwart with a staff will push a powder keg"
- "Guard with a dagger won't bother to turn around"
- "Guard with a dagger will body-kill"
- "Guard with a dagger will not body-kill if that would blow a bomb"
- "Guard with a caber on player will stay in place to kill the player"
- "Guard with a staff on player will move forward"
- "Guard with a pick-axe on player will move forward"
- "Guard with a spear on player will move into player to kill"
- "Guard with a spear on player will move into player to kill, even if bomb is one tile further because it won't be stabbed"
- "Guard with a staff won't be afraid of attacking bombs"
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they're moving"
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move"
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move even NW"
- "Guard with a dagger will refuse to kill himself when closely surrounded by bombs"
- "Guard with a staff will push a powder keg"
- "Slayer with a dagger won't be afraid to keep his dagger over a bomb"
- "Slayer with a dagger won't turn while moving"

If any of them doesn't make sense I can explain them better :).

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02-08-2016 at 09:47 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
I have some questions about cases not covered in that above list. Which are mostly "how does this work" and probably won't affect the upcoming release unless they don't work the way people think they should.

1. Does bomb logic apply to friendly entities? That is, will a guard with a staff move it onto other guards or slayers, or will stalwarts do that with a player/decoy/mimic/stalwart? Or do they avoid putting their weapon on friendly entities at all, which would make sense because they might knock you into a pit or something?
2. Related to that, will they move the caber off of friendly entities in order to avoid killing them?
3. Spears and pickaxes are safe to hit bombs with on some moves but not others. Do guards and stalwarts with those weapons make "safe" moves, or do they continue to avoid hitting bombs because it's too much work to make them check?
4. What happens with the caber and bombs, do they avoid those just in case the explosion causes a deadly chain reaction?
02-08-2016 at 10:49 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
1. From the top of my memory they have no qualms against moving staff onto anything, at least that was the intended behavior.
2. No, they won't move the caber off.
3. No, anything that is not a staff is treated like a sword. They just don't have enough training :).
4. Caber is treated like a sword in this case.

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02-08-2016 at 11:26 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (0)  
There's a long list of things to check here. Bumping this so it's more visible, as I haven't checked any of this.
02-26-2016 at 08:57 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+4)  
Okay, working on this big list. May take a while. I will edit things in as I check them, and post the edits if I find bugs.

- "Stalwart with a dagger won't bother to turn around"
Confirmed. Tested with stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will body-kill"
Confirmed. Tested with stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will not body-kill if that would blow a bomb"
Bug. The stalwart/soldier is correctly detecting the bombs/powder kegs/allies. HOWEVER! His behavior in this situation is to turn to face an adjacent monster without killing it, which doesn't seem like it should be allowed. This is most evident with brains and skipper nests, which don't move, but you can also see it by, say, putting the stalwart on a force arrow that keeps the monster away from him.

- "Stalwart with a caber on monster will stay in place to kill the monster"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a staff on monster will move forward"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a pick-axe on monster will move forward"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a spear on monster will move into the monster to kill"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a spear on monster will move into the monster to kill, even if bomb is one tile further because it won't be stabbed"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier, with bombs, powder kegs, and all allied entities (except essential NPCs).
- "Stalwart with a staff won't be afraid of attacking bombs"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier. They both move the staff over bombs and powder kegs.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction he's moving"
Confirmed. Tested with stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move"
Confirmed. Test: surround a stalwart with walls and put a seep next to him, he turns and kills the seep. Not sure if there's another scenario I could be testing. Works for soldier too.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move even NW"
Confirmed. Above behavior works in all directions, with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a dagger will refuse to kill himself when closely surrounded by bombs"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.
- "Stalwart with a staff will push a powder keg"
Confirmed. Tested with both stalwart and soldier.

Additional behavior confirmed:
-Stalwarts/soldiers with a staff will not move it over allies.
-Stalwarts/soldiers with a caber will not move it over bombs, kegs, or allies.

- "Guard with a dagger won't bother to turn around"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will body-kill"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will not body-kill if that would blow a bomb"
Confirmed. Unlike the stalwarts and soldiers, the guard stays still.
- "Guard with a caber on player will stay in place to kill the player"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a staff on player will move forward"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a pick-axe on player will move forward"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a spear on player will move into player to kill"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a spear on player will move into player to kill, even if bomb is one tile further because it won't be stabbed"
Confirmed. Tested with both bomb and powder keg.
- "Guard with a staff won't be afraid of attacking bombs"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they're moving"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will turn to face the direction they tried to move even NW"
Confirmed.
- "Guard with a dagger will refuse to kill himself when closely surrounded by bombs"
Confirmed. Tested with both bombs and powder kegs.
- "Guard with a staff will push a powder keg"
Confirmed.

Additional behavior confirmed:
-Guards with a staff will not move it onto allies.
-Guards with a caber will not move it onto bombs, kegs, or allies.

- "Slayer with a dagger won't be afraid to keep his dagger over a bomb"
Confirmed for both Slayer and 39th Slayer.
- "Slayer with a dagger won't turn while moving"
Confirmed for both Slayer and 39th Slayer.

BUGS:
-Stalwart with dagger: If there is an enemy adjacent to a Stalwart/Soldier with a dagger, and a bomb he would hit if he bodykilled the enemy, he will turn to face the enemy without killing it. Expected behavior: either the stalwart stays in place, or he tries to turn manually.
-Stalwart/Soldier with a staff will not move it onto allies. Needs to be clarified if this is intended. Edit: apparently it is!

[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 02-27-2016 09:25 PM]
02-27-2016 at 08:08 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Guard with dagger (+1)  
Confirmed everything except the thing about stalwarts with daggers instantly turning when forbidden targets are near.
02-27-2016 at 09:25 PM
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